Author Topic: First Cut Out ~ Any Advice? (Read 8830 times)

mtnb · « **on:** July 20, 2016, 10:45:14 pm »

Today I went and looked at an established colony located in the local liquor store ceiling. I took my husband's portable inspection camera which allowed me to look above the ceiling tile and see the bees. They have been there for a year now and from what I saw, they have several combs built. I saw at least two that I could make out and the outer one was filled with honey. Many bees. It's an old building and the ceiling is made up of 1' x 2' tiles which won't be hard to remove. I think. haha Above that is a layer of insulation, the type you lay in, and the bees are above that. I plan on removing several of these tiles and basically working within that bay between the studs. I do have a full suit which I plan on wearing. I have a queen clip and hope to find her as I remove the comb and rubber band that into my hive frames.

How exactly do I use my smoker in this situation so it's of help to me? It's going to be dark up there. Can I use a regular flash light for this or will they freak out? I do have a head lamp with a red light on it that I could use. Once I get them all out, what can be done to assure no other bees will move in? Should I scrub everything with bleach water? Divemaster mentioned using almond extract and tea tree oil in another thread. Should I use this mix to spray the area when I'm done? I do not have a bee vac but do have a shop vac. Should I leave something behind to catch the late returning stragglers? I plan on doing this on Sunday after work. I figure I'd start around 7 pm.

Any advice you may have will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Yvonne

Psparr · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2016, 11:08:22 pm »

For what it's worth here's my opinion. Be ready for it to take longer than you think. Second, is it clear below the hive? No shelving, or is it in a customer area? It's going to get messy with the honey.
Which brings me to my third suggestion. Start with the brood comb. The honey will just mess everything up before you get into the hard part. I would certainly ask about the smoker use because the smoke smell will linger. It won't be necessary if you're completely suited. A flashlight would be fine, a 500 W halogen light would be even better. You're going to have quite a few bees below the ceiling tile when you're done. Hopefully after dark they will return to the hive area and you can replace the ceiling tiles. There must be an entrance close by I would find that before starting the cut out and seal it up after dark. The next day you could open the area back up, Spray the remaining cluster with sugar water and shake them into a box. I would explain to the liquor store owner there will certainly be bees in the shop even after dark. Also most say not to rubber band honey into frames, but if it's going into a single deep or medium there won't be much chance of drowning. One last tip, have quite a few 5 gallon bucket's. One for good honeycomb one for junk home one for cleanup and one for trash. And have fun with it.

mtnb · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2016, 09:15:56 am »

Thank you so much psparr! All that is really helpful! I never would have thought about the honey drowning the bees. Makes sense though. The many bucket thing is great.

They're in a back room where the door can be closed and we do know where they're coming in from.
Thanks again!

iddee · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2016, 10:57:05 am »

Starting at 7 PM, plan to be there until after midnight. Then plan to go back the next day to look for the queen. There is a 75% chance you will miss her the first day.
Light the smoker, walk in and lightly smoke the cluster. Take the smoker back outside. You may need to bring it back in a time or two. If it isn't left inside, the smell will dissipate quickly. Do NOT use the shop vac alone. It will kill every bee it takes in.

I disagree with removing the brood first. The honey will be on the outside, with the brood in the middle. Remove the honey first, then remove all the brood except two side by side combs about a foot long. If you haven't found the queen by then, she will return to the two combs when you leave the area.
DO NOT try to frame up the honey. Even in a single deep, you will drown many bees, besides making it harder for the hive to defend against robbers.
Use the red light, not the white light. Even better, if feasible, open the area to outside light.

Set the hive outside, near the entrance when finished. Allow them to go into the building to remove any honey that spilled. After a day or two, take the hive home after dusk. If you get the queen in a clip, leave her in it until the hive is in your apiary.

It is useless to try to seal all entrances or spray the area with chemicals to prevent another swarm. The only way to prevent it is to fill the void with insulation to the point they cannot hang comb

Psparr · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2016, 11:28:52 am »

I know I've heard from darn near everyone not to frame honey, but I've had no problem with it. And hive beetles in her area shouldn't be a problem.

iddee · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2016, 02:03:47 pm »

I've heard of people going into hives without smoke, too, but it's just a matter of time before they pay the price. Same thing with framing honey.

Blacksheep · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2016, 05:18:17 pm »

I have done several cutouts and they are not a fun job.I hope you have help as I have done many alone and it is a very rough process!
Working over head isn't fun and you need a stable platform to work from.The helper can put the brood in the frames and handle that part as well as handing you what ever you need.I don't put any honey in the frames as you cannot control it due to its weight.After I got the bees in the box and to the yard I squeeze the honey out and feed it back to the bees in the quart jar method.Messing around with the honey in the frames is bad news.Everytime I did that I lost the hive to robbers,Small Hive Beetles,etc.
I treat a cut out just like a swarm I have just hived.So far all is well with the ones I did that way!Good Luck and it is a greaT LEARNING EXPERIENCE!

Rurification · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2016, 05:28:41 pm »

A cut out is a great learning experience, but it is HARD work.

You MUST use a bee vac or you will be surrounded by really angry bees attacking you for hours. Once you start removing, smoke won't help keep them calm. I wouldn't bother.

My first cutout took all day [8 or so hours]. We had to go back two more days to make sure all the bees were out of the house [interior basement ceiling between basement and first floor.] The comb was super soft and a real pain to get into the frames, so an extra pair of hands to do that while you hand things down is a good idea.

Bring way more spray foam/insulation than you think you will need. WAY more.

Make sure you've got plastic for the floor and wherever you might walk because things get super messy really fast. Move all the furniture out of the room or cover it.

I did my cut out from the top of a ladder into a hole between joists above my head. I had to use a flashlight and that was hard because then one of my hands was busy. If you've got a head lamp, I'd use that so you can have both hands free for working.

Take motrin/ibuprofen or the like because you will probably get pinged through your suit.

Bring water, because it'll be warm in the ceiling and you'll need to hydrate/take breaks.

mtnb · « **Reply #8 on:** July 22, 2016, 07:36:12 am »

Oh boy. It sounds like it'll take a lot longer than I thought. Maybe I should postpone until Tuesday morning when my weekend starts. They are towards the back of the store above a back room. I do plan on partitioning off the little hallway that leads to the store. There is just a bunch of crap in that room with a very stable wood shelving on which I plan to stand and can put some buckets and a hive body. I do not have a helper. lol I wish. I also really wish I had a bee vac but I don't. So I'll have to make do. I can take the smoker in and out. That shouldn't be a problem. I'll just cut the honey and put that in a bucket instead of trying to frame it like I will try to do with the brood. Lord I do hope I find the queen! There is no way I will be able to open this area up to outside light. I have a headlamp so I'll use that but when I was watching videos I was surprised how they didn't react at all to just regular light as I've read and heard they don't like it. My husband has one of those protected bulb lights you can hang in places like to work on your engine so I guess I'll use that.

Ok, thanks guys. Now that you properly have me worried, I'll just go for it. lol It'll be the first time wearing my suit as well. I do hope it's not too awkward. Thanks for all the advice!

Acebird · « **Reply #9 on:** July 22, 2016, 08:09:15 am »

I have never done a cut out but if I were to do one I would not attempt to do it without a bee vac. You have a shop vac so just make it into a bee vac using a 5 gallon pail. You have until Tuesday so get to work.

GSF · « **Reply #10 on:** July 22, 2016, 08:26:13 am »

Lots of good advice here. Ditto on it taking much longer. Not only will you need water to drink you'll need it to keep your gloves and tools clean. Honey is slicky.

mtnb · « **Reply #11 on:** July 22, 2016, 11:04:27 am »

Quote from: Acebird on July 22, 2016, 08:09:15 am

I have never done a cut out but if I were to do one I would not attempt to do it without a bee vac. You have a shop vac so just make it into a bee vac using a 5 gallon pail. You have until Tuesday so get to work.

I totally agree with that the more I think about it. Generally, I prefer to make things as difficult as possible for myself when I do something for the first time

but I think without a bee vac it will prolong my effort unnecessarily and I'll have a much better chance at getting the queen right away. So that's the plan now. I'll make a vac this weekend and will start the cut out on Tuesday morning.

One other thing. I get the feeling from talking to the guy that he's doing me a favor by getting me free bees. I'm not charging him. I'm basically doing him a favor and just doing it for the experience. How can I convey this to him without sounding like an ass?

iddee · « **Reply #12 on:** July 22, 2016, 12:43:47 pm »

WALK AWAY....... NO, RUN.

IF YOU DO IT FREE, YOU WILL NEVER DO ANOTHER CUTOUT. HE IS VERY UNINFORMED, AND NEEDS AN EDUCATION DESPERATELY.

mtnb · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2016, 01:01:13 pm »

Oh lord seriously? Is it going to be THAT bad? So please tell me. What do I tell him? How much would one charge? What else could he do but turn to me? There are no other beekeepers in this area. If I don't get them he will surely just kill them and foam everything in...

I've explained to him about the comb and the honey and the scents and returning swarms and mice and ants and such...he's also watched several videos online on cut outs...

GSF · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2016, 01:53:53 pm »

Before you do it call him and tell him that you want to go over everything one more time. Remind him, as a courtesy I'm not charging you, if someone were to charge you you'd be looking at anywhere from $400 to $1200 dollars. I've done maybe 3 free cutouts. I told them that and up front we had the understanding that they would do the repairs since I wasn't charging them anything. I actually had one person try to pay me. He's like, man I didn't realize the work that was involved.

If you think you've made a mistake tell him you think it's going to be to big of a task or you've bit off more than you can chew, ect. Are you going to do the repairs as well? For free? If so I believe you're making a big mistake. I've heard folks talk about cut outs and mention the need for a contract. That contract would lay anything that goes wrong in the other person's lap. You may work all day and then get sued for it.

If you're looking for genetics go out and buy some nucs here there and everywhere. Good luck

iddee · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2016, 02:46:12 pm »

You will be in full suit in the heat for 3 to 8 hours. You will be working above your head with honey dripping on you. You will get 5 to 50 stings. You will get a bucket of dirty honey that has to be fed back to your bees, possibly causing a robbing war. If you don't get the queen, you will go back the next day to find a cluster of 3 to 6 lb. of bees in the cavity. With no vac, how will you get them? If you get her, she may stay or she may take the bees and abscond. I did 2 on Saturday, 2 weeks ago. One of them, I went back Sunday and vacced the cluster One stayed, one left. I charged 300 for one and 460 for the other. After you get them home, you may find that you just brought chalkbrood, sac brood, afb, efb, or something else into your apiary to spread to your hives. It is late July. You will buy a lot of sugar if you get them heavy enough for winter.

You do all this for "A CHANCE" of getting a package of bees that you can buy in the spring for 100 dollars and get a guaranteed queen and be disease free.

Rurification · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2016, 03:00:32 pm »

Yvonne - now that you're good and worried, know that I learned more about myself doing my cutout than I did about bees. I took dozens and dozens of pings through my suit [mostly shoulders and thighs where the material pulled tight]. There was a moment when my head was surrounded by smoke and 10K angry noisy bees attacking that I was pretty freaked and wondered if it was too late to run away. I chose not to panic and I finished the job with my husband assisting. It was one of those defining moments.

But I will NEVER do another cutout without a bee vac. [We ended up using a shop vac halfway through. Killed all the bees we used it on.] The bees we were able to salvage with the brood comb into boxes were super upset. By nothing short of a miracle I found and caged the queen in the box of comb. We took a box of comb and bees home but the colony never really recovered. This is not a good way to get 'free' bees.

We charged the client $300 for the removal and basic cleanup. The repair was extra and a completely separate job. The client said it was worth every penny.

Blacksheep · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2016, 03:17:53 pm »

If it is just to get the bees why bother since you can just buy a package and sit at home.
Question!How are you going to get the bees in a box? A vacum is the only way and they will be hundreds of bees flying around.
I REALLY THINK YOU BETTER THINK THIS OVER VERY CAREFULLY AS YOUR NOT PREPARED FOR THE JOB!You Need Help and a Vacum setup ,smoke is usless when you start to cut into the nest the bees start to defend the hive big time.When you are looking up the veil will contact your face and the bees will get you!Been there and done that !

GSF · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2016, 03:59:29 pm »

When you are looking up the veil will contact your face and the bees will get you

That's about the dang truth!

Now I remember! Do you wear glasses? Make a sweatband to catch all that sweat before it goes down across the front of your lenses - time and time again.

Who said cut outs wasn't a lot of fun? :)

divemaster1963 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2016, 04:23:54 pm »

Ditto and ditto on the beevac. I have done 100s of cutouts. By my self and with help. By your self it takes almost twice as long. I have done jobs with no vac. Very very few. You have to go slower and try to bring bees with the comb. That makes it sting time. There are several vac designs on web that can be made in one night with minimal parts. Make one. Make sure you open the are as big as possible the bees will run. Use bee-gone to keep bees from traveling to far. Buythe good smelling stuff so you ddon't choke your self. If you don't have any go Walmart and buy their 8 ounce bottle of pure almond oil and get bottle of teatree oil. Add two drops of teatree oil to the almond oil and shake it up. Use a spray bottle to spray lightly in area you want them to not go in. Use cotton balls and spray balls and push into ajacent cavities less is more.when your finished and get ready to seal up entrance you can use the oil to chase them to entrance. Place the hive on stand outside at the entrance to get the workers coming back then pickup the next night.

John

Google them you can get them at Amazon, and other places. I pay a little more because the snap-on dealer comes to our shop.