First Cut Out ~ Any Advice?

[Nugget Shooter]

Great news and you now found out what I did at my first and yes I charge now too. One of the cutouts I did also yielded very small and dark bees with a almost black queen and they are gentile as heck and booming in their new home. Took several stings getting them out of their tire where they set up housekeeping....

[BeeMaster2]

Congratulations. One for the memories.
After 9 hours, the home owner should be offering to pay something.
Jim

[mtnb]

Thanks everyone for the congratulations! That was one heck of an experience. It took me about 3 hours to get past all the honey, when I finally reached some pollen. Then the brood. That was definitely the most time consuming part. Cutting off part and then trying to put that into the frames with the rubber bands. That took a while. I did try to use my lid as a little table but at that point it had so much honey and dead and stuck bees on it, it was really unusable. lol I had several knives with black handles of course and I used black plastic paper so at first I kept losing the knives and misplacing them. lol Next time, bright orange handles. lol The vacuum Bob built me worked great! I definitely could not have done it without that. It went on for a long time lol and then after about 6 hours the whole thing just seemed futile. lol Like it would never end. Like they would never stop returning through the gaps. lol I know you guys said not to save all the brood but I did try to save most of it. That probably prolonged everything. lol I got stung many times mostly when I kneeled down onto a bee or when one was on the back of my suit and I had to squat down to work the comb. I had a big swollen lump on thigh when I got home and I could feel the venom in my veins that night. lol When I finally got to the last little combs, I was so relieved. Finally I saw an end in sight. I did end up using some smoke because they just wouldn't stop returning. I figured the queen was AWOL at that point. I drove them out and then sealed everything from inside. Thank the lord the place is a dump anyway so my bad foaming job really isn't that noticeable. lol And the owner didn't care how it looked anyway. The smoke smell didn't last long. Just last night and was gone by today. On my last dump of my vac, I definitely waited too long and there were many dead and dying bees in it. I felt so horrible. That was really awful and I know it was my fault for not emptying sooner. There was no sign by the bees that the queen was in one of the hive bodies and there were dead and dying bees running away on the ground. Clusters of confused and upset little critters. Lord that was horrible. I carefully looked at all the clusters on the ground and holy lord Jesus, THERE SHE WAS! I honestly couldn't believe my eyes and thought I was seeing things. I scooped her up with some attendants into a clip and put her into the hive. She looked very stressed and must have gone through hell and back. I was going to keep her in the clip for a day but seeing her condition, I just let her go in. They were all very happy to have her though and immediately started nasanoving. It was really like a wave. It started at the top, took about 5 minutes to get the signal to the front porch and then the ones on the outside side walls started as well. I smoked the rest off from under the outside roof and after a while they all found their way to their new hive. She is very beautiful long and big and black. Oh, as I was removing comb I noticed the bees very very small and elongated and then as I removed comb and got in deeper, the bees seemed to get bigger and there were also some blonds and such. They're very interesting looking. Even the drones were smaller and longer. Anyway, I am so glad I did that. It was super hard work. Today I felt like I had worked out for hours which I did I guess lol because my quads were really sore from standing and squatting standing and squatting. lol Really I only took a break for maybe 10 minutes while my hubby stopped by and I ate my sandwich. I will definitely charge for it next time. Bob's all into it. He says I can be on his contractors insurance and I'll cut out and he'll repair. lol

The owner did want to pay me. He wrote me a check for $200 which I did not take. I said I would do it for free so that's what I'm sticking with. I'm not gonna change my mind just because things got hard. He also owns the Two Bit Saloon in town where we eat sometimes so I told him if he wanted to buy us a dinner there one night, that'd be great. He agreed to that.

Yes, it's been a good week! lol And to think I had just one hive last year and now I have six! lol 1 overwintered one, 2 nucs I purchased this spring, 1 split I did, the swarm, and the liquor bees. I could use a few more.  lol

Thanks for thinking of me yesterday Robin. I felt it. 

http://s284.photobucket.com/user/MTBeeGirl/media/First%20Cut%20Out%20July%202016/image.jpg1_zpsegimkltg.jpg.html?sort=2&o=0

[Psparr]

Learning the first time I would have payed just for the experience. Looks great! Free bees and honey. A win win!

[iddee]

Now that you know we weren't lying, let me give you one more tip. At one time, I was working full time and doing 40 to 80 cutouts annually. Don't start something you don't want to get buried in. You will have more calls then you ever imagined.

BUT IT'S STILL FUN.    

PS. Come work for me, Psparr. I'll give you a package of ""free"" bees for each 9 1/2 hours you put in, and you won't have to pay me. 

[Acebird]

PS. Come work for me, Psparr. I'll give you a package of ""free"" bees for each 9 1/2 hours you put in, and you won't have to pay me. 

That's a good one, "free bees".  LMAO

[Rurification]

Yvonne!  I am so happy for you!!

Intense, right?   That moment when you realize you're in the middle of ANGRY.

Your pictures were fabulous.   I'm super happy you found the queen.   I found my queen pretty much the same way, but mine was in the box all the time.   I caged her and put her back, but they never nasanov-ed.   It's awesome that yours did and you got to watch them get their act together.   I hope these bees are really productive for you.

[Psparr]

Now that you know we weren't lying, let me give you one more tip. At one time, I was working full time and doing 40 to 80 cutouts annually. Don't start something you don't want to get buried in. You will have more calls then you ever imagined.

BUT IT'S STILL FUN.    

PS. Come work for me, Psparr. I'll give you a package of ""free"" bees for each 9 1/2 hours you put in, and you won't have to pay me. 

Well I wouldn't want your bees, but untreated survivor stock to boost the genetics in my yard. I'd take the 9 1/2 hrs. work any day of the week for that. It's all in how you look at it.

[Acebird]

Yvonne, Was there an LED bulb in the shop light?  It appeared as though you cleaned the comb of bees and then cut it out.  Is that the normal way to proceed?  What do you think would speed the process up?  If you had frames that were split in half and hinged at the top bar do you think it would help?  What if you had a tool that they use for top bar hives instead of a kitchen knife to reach in and cut the comb loose from the wood?

iddee, you are doing 40-80 a week?  You gotta love the heat.

[KeyLargoBees]

Congrats Yvonne!!!!

Like anything.....with practice and experience you will develop a rhythm and a comfort level. If you were to rewind this same job and perform it over again in a year I bet that 9.5 will turn into 4-5 hours. I also had a horrible bee die off experience in a vac and took some time considering the cause...and I think it tends to result from 3 things.... overheating, Honey coated bees,and "bounce" on entering the catch basket.

1. Overheating you can combat by dumping the container often.....
2. Honey....You end up sucking up honey coated bees and they roll down the inside of hose...coating the inside of the hose with honey....so the longer you vac the more honey is in the hose and as the bees tumble down...even the ones that didn't start off coated become coated in the hose. So for long removals that are messy with honey try and limit the number of honey coated bees you suck up (impossible I know) and when you empty the catch basket rinse out the hose if at all possible.
3. Bounce.....really work on suction control just barely enough suction to pull a bee off a surface...its slower but safer. I built my own vac from the plans on beesource and used it for 6 months with mixed results....then I splurged and spent some money on a colorado bee rescue vac and the design with the pegboard diffuser makes the bees have zero bounce when they enter the catch basket and my mortality rate is down to 1% or less.

Every removal is different and is a learning experience...keep it up and enjoy yourself ;-)

[Acebird]

Congrats Yvonne!!!!


3. Bounce.....really work on suction control just barely enough suction to pull a bee off a surface...its slower but safer. I built my own vac from the plans on beesource and used it for 6 months with mixed results....then I splurged and spent some money on a colorado bee rescue vac and the design with the pegboard diffuser makes the bees have zero bounce when they enter the catch basket and my mortality rate is down to 1% or less.

Two things are wrong with the design; 1 the intake should not point down at the pile of bees in the bottom of the bucket.  I don't know why most designs are like this.  The intake should come from the side of the bucket creating a swirl with nothing for the bees to bounce into.  2 the exhaust (the air going to the shop vac) should come from the center and be protected with #8 mesh which is much larger in area then the dia of the hose.  This can be done by using a second bucket cutting it 2-3 inches from the top and mounting it to the top of the first bucket.

As long as the shop vac is not turned off the bees in the bucket are getting fresh air and should not overheat.  A couple puffs of smoke to the intake hose should keep them calm but don't get the smoker to close because it could suck in sparks.

[iddee]

Ace, doing 40 to 80 annually during my peak years is a million miles away from doing that many weekly now, at 71 y/o.

Psparr, if you really want survivors, check this out.

www.waynesbees.com

[mtnb]

Thanks guys. Idk Robin, mine weren't that angry. There was a point where I was covered with them but I felt very safe in my suit. I feel like I've been in angrier crowds. lol

I sure would be happy if I could do this once a week and make $400 or more. With clean up the following day I probably spent a total of 12-13 hours. I have to spend a lot of time with stupid people at my work in order to make that. lol Honestly, I'd rather work this hard, get some bees and honey, and stay and work at home. lol

I know exactly what I did wrong. I simply waited too long to empty. I had put some scrap towels in the bottom of the vac to prevent the bounce and the first few times I emptied it, all the bees were safe and happy and healthy. That makes sense about sucking up honey though and clogging things up over time. Rinsing it out is a good idea. They just wouldn't stop coming back in so I sucked them up way too long and filled the bucket up too much. Someone in my northern bee group on fb mentioned something about a robo vac which is a design for larger hives like this one was, but I have yet to look into that. I'll check out that colorado vac too Jeff.

So how do you exactly work it at the very end? When you have all the comb cut out and they're still coming back in? How do you seal it without smoking them out? Do you spray something on the outside and then seal? That stupid foam bottle the owner bought me, you had to hold up side down to spray which was almost impossible to do to get the crack at the top of the ceiling with the ceiling, ie roof right there. My husband says professionals have a sprayer that allows better coverage but they're expensive and he doesn't have that. If someone could explain the steps at the very end of the process of removal, that'd be great. :)

My suction control was awesome. Bob built it so I had a little slider piece on the top where I could control that. He totally improved that design from what we saw online. The guy in the video had to use his hand to cup the hole to control it. This way I had both hands to use for work.

Btw, divemaster, that almond spray stuff wasn't all that great. Very very temporary. lol I did forget about putting it on cotton balls and stuffing it with the scent in places though. That would have worked better than just spraying I bet.

Acebird, I have no idea about those top bar items and tools you're talking about so I have no idea. There was one of those spiraly bulbs in the light. No hallogen. I'm not sure about normal procedure but the videos I watched, they'd suck the bees off the comb and then remove it. Once I got to the pollen and brood, I left the nurse bees on the comb while cutting it and moving it. That reminds me, I was wondering how long brood can survive without bees covering them?

[Acebird]

Look at this:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/212470691/top-bar-hive-tool-collection-by?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_everything_else-mid-other&utm_custom1=3273fde6-46a6-4401-b13d-8d4bc2de7ab2&gclid=CJyvg9vKmM4CFUFkhgodfgYF7g
It allows you to slide the tool along side the wood to cut out the comb.  I didn't know there was such a thing as a bee herder!

[Acebird]

I'm not sure about normal procedure but the videos I watched, they'd suck the bees off the comb and then remove it. Once I got to the pollen and brood, I left the nurse bees on the comb while cutting it and moving it. That reminds me, I was wondering how long brood can survive without bees covering them?

Mind you I have never done this so my idea is pie in the sky but if you were to wear rubber gloves to start and had a clam shell frame with alternate vertical wires you could cut the comb the shape of the frame and place it into the clam shell upside down (with the top bars on the bottom) and slowly close it up allowing the bees to get out of the way of the wires.  Then you can put the frame in the box with all the bees on the frame.  The majority of the bees on the frame should be young bees.  The older bees and foragers are already air borne when you first open the hive.

Any bee that gets smashed by the shop vac is going to blow pheromones everywhere in the room.  So my thought is to use it at the end of the extraction not the beginning.

[Acebird]

MT Bee Girl, I meant to ask you this and I keep forgetting.  Can you tell me the bearing of these combs?  They built them at a slight angle to the ceiling joists.  I am curious as to the direction from magnetic North.

[Rurification]

Yvonne - I was not able to get all my bees out before I sprayed.   We used the good spray foam that you hold however you need to.   I got as many bees out as I could, then just sprayed what I had to to finish.  Many bees got caught in the foam but there was nothing I could do.   In my cut out, the bees were coming from the outside of the house, along a large channel between the siding and the foundation right in to the space between the joists.  There was a LOT of space to foam up.  I went through 6 or so cans of it the first day.   We went back the next day to finish spraying around the entire foundation of the house to close it up from future swarms.   [Bad 1960s building techniques.]

If you love cut outs, you should definitely keep doing it.   There's a demand and you're clearly gifted at it.  Go for it!  Won't be long until you can quit the other job.

[iddee]

""So how do you exactly work it at the very end? When you have all the comb cut out and they're still coming back in? How do you seal it without smoking them out?""

I place my catch hive outside where they go in at, then spray the cavity with beequick. It runs all of them out and they find their family in the hive.

Robo Vac

https://beevac.com/

[mtnb]

Brian, those are some neat tools. They remind me of when we used to go to rendezvous back in the day. You know the 1840's trappers reenactments? Idk, for me it seems like it'd be something else to misplace in the chaos. lol The rubber band and frame thing worked pretty good. I had set up the frames with 3 rubber bands on each side the night before but I had put them too close together so with my sticky fingers, it was difficult to separate them and move them over to the comb. I think next time I just need to separate them more when I set it up. I think also the lid as a table would have worked great had I left it out of the way at first and then moved it over to where I needed it once I got to the brood. The bee herder tool is pretty cool. Who knew? lol But again, idk, there are probably easier ways. I'm not really one for gadgets. A good pair of gloves is really all you need to touch the comb with bees on it. I'm looking into getting those that divemaster described. I had bought some heavy dishwashing gloves and some heavy duty chemical use gloves which where too big. They stung the heck out of me with the former. I put the latter over those and that was a god's sent! I had no issues with them other than slippage, being too big. I'll have to check the direction of the comb next time I head into that town. It seems to me though from knowing the area that it was definitely facing N/NW. I'll check and let you know.

Robin, I too had foamed in several bees that were in the way. Feels bad but you gotta do what you gotta do. This place I worked on was also a very old construction. My husband said he would have helped me had he had his own bee suit which TOTALLY surprised me. He's really pretty brave. The first time we went and picked up a nuc, he was the only one standing there without a bee jacket or veil on waiting on me. Newbees were coming up to him asking him what they should do. lol People always look for him to be in charge for some reason. lol He is very confident and looks like he's in charge. lol I think I'll get him his own suit next time they're on sale. I'm getting new cards made up and am definitely adding bee removals on it. Not sure about the demand here in MT but hopefully there will be once my name gets out there. I'd be totally into that. I really don't like people thAt much. lol ;)

Jim, looks like I need to get some beequick for my toolbox then. I smelled some beegone, I think it was at Murdock's, which sells some very limited beekeeping supply for very expensive, and it totally smelled like that almond spray I had made. Beequick must work better at driving them out then. I'll google it, read about it, and get some. Thanks! I'll watch that video on the link when I get a chance. Thanks for the link!

So what about how long can brood survive without bees covering it? Still curious about that.

[Acebird]

Robo Vac

https://beevac.com/

Right around 7 minutes he shows a split frame but it is hinged on the bottom bar which seems wrong to me.  As you cut out the comb you hold it with one hand at the bottom.  In order to put the comb in the split frame hinged at the bottom you have to change hands and grab the frame with the other hand or as he showed lay the frame down flat and lay the comb on one side.  Isn't that going to crush bees that are on the comb?  If the frame was hinged at the top bar you could set it in a nest upside down with it open in a V shape and just place the comb upside down with out any re-positioning of hands and simply close the frame without crushing any bees.  If I ever attempt a cut out I think I will try it that way.  I also will make a gadget something like a frame grabber with more dexterity to grab the comb with all the bees instead of vacuuming them off first.  That way the bees and the comb will stay together.  The gadget is so I don't pinch bees grabbing the comb with heavy gloves on.