Starter strips and how they are built

[Cindi]

OK, thought I would start a new topic.  There is talk about using starter strips instead of foundation.  There has indeed been discussion about this before but I need more information.

When bees are given foundation, they draw comb on both sides of the foundation, hence, shall we say, two sided comb.

When starter strip is given, I am having a really hard time "getting it".  I do not function well with this kind of logic, it drives my husband nuts!!!  Do the bees somehow make a foundation and draw the cells out of each side of it?  It is beyond my realm of understanding and I need some indepth explanation about this new method to me.  Cannot understand.  Sorry.  Help.

Brian says that the bees draw the comb much more quickly with starter strips than foundation, so I am gung ho on attempting to use alot of starter strip comb this year.  Cheaper for sure than buying foundation and frames.  Besides, I was using the Pierceo plastic frames, and honestly am not impressed.  I had a hard time coaxing the bees to draw cells on the foundation, even when I sprayed the frames with sugar syrup, as implied in the instructions.  This may have even contributed to the colony not building up as well as they should for wintertime.  If anything, I will revert to the wooden frames with wax foundation.  The bees loved this.  Great day.  Cindi

[Jerrymac]

You remember bees in the wild? They don't have foundation to work from. They build the comb, both sides, as they go. The reason it is faster is because the bees are not divided by the foundation and they are all working together as one group instead of two groups trying two different chores, one on each side of the foundation.

[Cindi]

You remember bees in the wild? They don't have foundation to work from. They build the comb, both sides, as they go. The reason it is faster is because the bees are not divided by the foundation and they are all working together as one group instead of two groups trying two different chores, one on each side of the foundation.

Now doesn't that make a whole world of sense.  Never ever looked at it in that way.  I am fascinated and interested.  I have made a decision that I am going to try using lots of starter strips, along with the foundation that I already have.

Now the work begins.  Re-reading and studying about how the starter is attached and all the good stuff that goes with successfully implementing starter strips in the hives.  Thank you and great day.  Cindi

[Brian D. Bray]

Using starter strips is not hard.  If you're using wedged frames just put a 1 inch strip of foundation in the frame and secure it with the wedge. 
If you're using slotted or notched frames just fill the slot with wax to secure the foundation strip. 
The bees do the rest.  The build down, across, and out all at the same time.
They will build very uniform depth comb from top bar to bottom bar and from end bar to end bar.  Once drawn it will look more full that comb drawn from foundation.  It looks like wild comb with a picture frame around it. 
Using foundation the bees will draw different areas of comb on opposites of the foundation, they will draw it unevenly depth wise (especially if the foundation is loose and wavey), they will stop and leave gaps where the foundation does not touch the frame parts or where the foundation may be cracked. 

With starter strips you have none of those dow sides they build it just as in the wild.  The starter strip is just a guide that says "sart here."

[Michael Bush]

>When starter strip is given, I am having a really hard time "getting it".  I do not function well with this kind of logic, it drives my husband nuts!!!  Do the bees somehow make a foundation and draw the cells out of each side of it?

The bees build comb.  Humans build foundation.  When bees are given foundation they can draw it into comb, but the foundation is really in their way.  What they WANT to do is festoon in an empty space and build a comb in the middle of the cluster of festooning bees with bees working on both sides.  Give the bees a choice between foundation and empty space and they will build their own comb in the empty space.  The comb seems to grow out of the cluster.  It looks like this:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/PrimaryCombOnBlankStarterStrip.JPG

>Brian says that the bees draw the comb much more quickly with starter strips than foundation

It's the difference between your kids doing a chore you forced them to and doing something they want to do.  Enthusiasm is a great part of productivity.  Drawing comb in thin air is what bees do naturally.  Drawing comb on foundation is what beekeepers try to force them to do.  Not only will they build it faster but the queen  prefers to lay in it:

" The queen prefers to lay in natural built combs rather than those built from foundation. I have used all kinds of foundation and find this to be true. " --Jay Smith

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Stocking%20the%20Breeder%20Hive

[Cindi]

Brian and Michael.

Now this is the kind of information that I am looking for.  The responses to the questions are world their weight in gold, this must be proclaimed and your help must be acknowledged.  These questions that I ask are not only for the good of me.  Just think of all the other new beekeepers that have come onto the forum that are getting such fabulous information about the bees, the desires of the bees and helping the bees to become productive entities, for their own good and the bonus is for the beekeeper.  I can now see the importance of allowing the bees to do as many things naturally, as they should be doing, our intervention to have things go our way should be examined surely.

Every time I take a teaspoon of honey and look at it as I am putting it into my mouth or a cup of tea, I am marvelled at this beautiful substance that has been created by these girls of wonder and beauty.  I don't think that there is anything more satisfying and makes me feel more grateful, to know that I have this honey at my fingertips.  Something that I have helped to create, in my own tiny and little way.

Michael I love your website.  You have a wealth of knowledge that you have created and that I am grateful too for.  I have taken the time to look over your site several times and I see new information that I missed on a previous visit each time I go to it.  Thank you for creating a place of beauty.  Great day Brian and Michael.  Cindi

[Mici]

great, someone asked something i asked before but wasn't very thourough. basicly i need more info:) aout wiring. when given only a starter strip, will they build over the wiring? i've seen a few photos of them building over the wires but...better safe than sorrow. this is the only thing that's been bugging me for months-wire+starter strip, or should i wire+empty foundation.

[Jerrymac]

The bees will build over the wire.

[ndvan]

I have more, related questions:

1. Do you also use foundationless in the honey supers? 

2.What do they build there in the way of cell size? 

3.How sturdy are foundationless frames for extracting purposes?  I understand that they   Do

[TwT]

I like the pierco frames and foundation but bee's dont build it fast at all compared to wood and wax, last year I took 5 deep frames from a hive to start a nuc, replaced them with 5 wooden frames of starter strips, 6 days later they were drawn out completely and even attached at the bottom, so now I have turned to all wood and wax, they just draw it out alot faster and that makes it better for me.......... 

[Finsky]

.
Here  is a pictures about foundationless frame in South Africa. Look lower.
http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/za/za-1.htm

[Mici]

thank you both for replying

[Scadsobees]

You don't necessarily need to wire in the honey supers, it depends on your extraction method.  I have a 2frame extractor and it has a cage, so sometimes the comb will get a little off kilter but the bees can fix that up fine.  Rarely ruin comb.

They will draw anywhere from small to extra large cells.  I see some normal, but quite often drone comb in the supers.  I don't use an excluder, and the queen will go up through 3 full supers to lay in drone comb at the top.

I find that foundation generally results in a neater comb and is easier to handle.  But it is more expensive, so I try the foundationless.

There should be some information about that too on Michael Bush's  website.

-rick

[Michael Bush]

>will they build over the wiring?

Yes.  But I don't bother to wire.  Without the wire I have the option to extract or make cut comb depending on how old the wax is (new wax is very soft) and how well attached it is (if it's not attached a little on all four sides I cut it for comb honey).

>1. Do you also use foundationless in the honey supers?

I do.

>2.What do they build there in the way of cell size?

It varies, but it's usually larger than the brood nest, and smaller than standard brood foundation, unless it's drone sized.

>3.How sturdy are foundationless frames for extracting purposes?

As long as the wax is several weeks old (before that it's soft like putty) and attached on all four sides and you are gentle (which you should be anyway), meaning you go slow with the extractor until half or more of the honey is out, then they extract fine.  I do it all the time with no wires.

>There should be some information about that too on Michael Bush's  website.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

[BEE C]

MB I can't remember if I asked this before, but how many frames do you extract with an extracter and how many by pressing the comb? Which do you prefer and why? What are the pros and cons to you?  I wasn't totally happy with how clear I could get the honey using an extractor, and thought I remembered a post where you had said that pressed honey was clearer? :-\I let the honey set to get the air bubbles out, but there seemed to be a very slight look like early crystalization, yet this honey stayed liquid longest.  Are the wavy bands of crytallizing honey molecules avoidable more with pressed comb?  Those were great pictures of foundationless frames from south africa! I have decided to make a tbh with regular lang frames but starter strip.  I was curious about press extraction.  I like the idea of getting more wax for candles.

[Cindi]

Good questions Steve.  Awaiting responses.

I have been fortunate that none of my honey has yet to crystallize.  I have the excess stored in gallon glass jars and I see that it is still in the liquid state.  I think it has to do with what the bees foraged on in their apiary vicinity. There was so much that I planted for them that I think that most of their nectar was my honey plants, and obviously these plants are ones that do not readily cause crystallization.  That is the only explanation that I have.  Great day.  Cindi

[Finsky]

There was so much that I planted for them that I think that most of their nectar was my honey plants, and obviously these plants are ones that do not readily cause crystallization. 

Bees fly inside radius of one mile. It is 3 square miles. How big is your farm?

[Cindi]

There was so much that I planted for them that I think that most of their nectar was my honey plants, and obviously these plants are ones that do not readily cause crystallization. 

Bees fly inside radius of one mile. It is 3 square miles. How big is your farm?

Yes, I do know that information.  My farm is not enormous, certainly much smaller than 3 square miles.  Our farm is 5 acres in size.  I know that the bees do not stay home only to forage, they travel to all the pastures and other farms that are in our vicinity.  But I still believe, and my opinion would be hard to sway, that the bees gathered a very high percentage of their nectar sources from the flora on my property.  It is hard to describe, but between my sister and I we plant lots and lots of vegetables and flowers that have a very high attraction to the bees.  The bees really enjoyed the flowers on the asparagus plants when they were blooming, that surprised me.  Again, I know that they travelled elsewhere too.  Great day.  Cindi

[Michael Bush]

>MB I can't remember if I asked this before, but how many frames do you extract with an extracter and how many by pressing the comb?

I go through my hives and pull the excess honey.  Then I go through the excess honey and use the nice white soft comb for cut comb.  The same for frames where the comb isn't attached well all the way around and the comb is nice and white.  If the comb is dark and well attached I'd extract it.  If the comb is misformed, or not attached well I'd do crush and strain.  It depends on the comb and what I need at the time.  If I need more cut comb, I'll be searching harder for good combs to cut.  If I need more extracted I'll be looking for well attached combs that aren't too soft to extract.  I also try to sort by color and do the dark ones together and the light ones together.  These tend to already be sorted by the bees, in that a super with one frame of dark honey is likely to be full of dark honey.  It also depends on how much honey I have that year.

>I wasn't totally happy with how clear I could get the honey using an extractor, and thought I remembered a post where you had said that pressed honey was clearer?

I have heard that.  I've also heard it tastes better.  That could be, I don't know.  It all tastes pretty good.  But for sure you have less caramelized honey when you're not uncapping with a hot knife.

>Are the wavy bands of crytallizing honey molecules avoidable more with pressed comb?

It's more avoidable in finely strained honey.  But I don't strain mine. I just let it crystalize.

[Cindi]

>Are the wavy bands of crytallizing honey molecules avoidable more with pressed comb?

>It's more avoidable in finely strained honey.  But I don't strain mine. I just let it crystalize

Michael, if you let it crystalize, then what do you do with it?  Curiousity did not get this cat.  Great day.  Cindi