Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: ATF EXPERT  (Read 2453 times)

Offline Salvo

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1458
ATF EXPERT
« on: April 14, 2024, 05:14:39 pm »
Hi Folks,

ATF expert:

ATF ?Firearms Expert? Gets Roasted For Failing At Glock Disassembly ? These Are The People Who Regulate Your Guns

https://dailycaller.com/2024/03/05/atf-firearms-expert-roasted-failing-glock-disassembly-regulate-guns-steven-dettelbach-chris-bort-margaret-brennan-cbs/

This is a result of the Ringlemann effect.



Online animal

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Gender: Male
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2024, 07:59:53 am »
Maybe he was only an expert in real firearms and the plastic threw him off.. :tongue:


 kidding .. Glocks are good and the expert's an idiot; and according to ATF, a metal business card is a machine gun  :grin:
Avatar pic by my oldest daughter (ink and watercolor)

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13076
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2024, 08:14:55 am »
I don?t know what Brand their service weapons are. But in fairness to the ATF agent, I doubt they know how to break down every single make and model made? Why would this be a requirement? Now if this is his personal Issued weapon, that is another matter.  :grin:
Matthew 10:16
16.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Online animal

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Gender: Male
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2024, 09:23:58 am »
Pretty sure Glock is the most common brand of firearm for law enforcement in general, and is extremely common in the public. I'm not a Glock fan, but that's more about preferences and stuff I'm used to that I like.
Anyway, I don't and have never owned one(and often call all models the Glock PPS.. plastic piece for a hint). Several friends have and like them and I have taken them down. No one ever showed me how, nor had I looked it up and it took less than 30 seconds of looking at it (and a background of knowing how semiauto pistols work) to know how it's done. It's REALLY easy.
I also don't claim to be an expert in firearms as this guy does, just someone with basic familiarity and experience. I was certified as an instructor years ago but that was mostly teaching people how to shoot well and safely, not gunsmithing.

If someone was about to be in a public situation where they knew that breakdown of a particular firearm would be needed, any reasonable person of moderate intelligence would familiarize themselves with it and practice it a time or two.

He claims expert status in firearms ...plus .. demonstrated a lack of knowledge...plus ... He failed to gain knowledge/skill in preparation ... times ... the demo was in public ... equals ... justification for calling his actions idiotic, and all the ridicule the public can muster.
 
Avatar pic by my oldest daughter (ink and watercolor)

Offline Terri Yaki

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1917
  • Gender: Male
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2024, 09:27:14 am »
I don?t know what Brand their service weapons are. But in fairness to the ATF agent, I doubt they know how to break down every single make and model made? Why would this be a requirement? Now if this is his personal Issued weapon, that is another matter.  :grin:
I have seen the video but didn't look at it hard. I can tell you that if I was going to be videoed doing something that the world would see, I'd make sure that I didn't look like a fool for the show. And while they are not all identical, they are like a puzzle that one with some common sense can usually figure out. Again, I did not look at the video hard so I don't know if he/they were able to figure it out. In my eyes, it exemplifies the level of incompetence we have leading our country...down the drain.

Online animal

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Gender: Male
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2024, 09:40:48 am »
I didn't watch it either .. and what Teri said about common sense for sure.

To Sal's point about "effects", I'd add Dunning-Kruger
Avatar pic by my oldest daughter (ink and watercolor)

Online Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13076
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2024, 10:06:35 am »
I didn?t watch it either, but your points were well-made, and accepted thanks for your post!
Matthew 10:16
16.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Online Kathyp

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 20676
  • Gender: Female
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2024, 11:45:10 am »
When the military made the very stupid choice to dump the .45 they went with the Beretta 9mm.  I don't know what police use, or if the military still uses that weapon.
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline Terri Yaki

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1917
  • Gender: Male
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2024, 12:21:22 pm »
Police use whatever their department head decides but I don't know how they come to that conclusion. Around here, .40 S&W was in for a while but they've gone back to the 9mm in the last couple of years. I've been told that the 9 has improved to where it's almost as potent as the .40 but they didn't change the brass or the makeup of the guns so I don't understand that part. The last I heard, PA State Police (PSP) has been using DA, hammer fired 9mm Sigs. 9mm is cheaper, lighter and plenty effective for the hoodlums so I expect it should work well enough for the police. Beside, a wise man once said, "A 9mm will blow a man's lung out", so I figure that should stop a perp.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 20029
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2024, 12:43:54 pm »
Over the years I've noticed that the majority of police follow the lead of the FBI.  So when the FBI was using a .38 special, that was the police handgun of choice.  When the FBI went to the .357, the 9mm, the .40/10mm and then back to the 9mm, they followed those.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Online Kathyp

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 20676
  • Gender: Female
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2024, 02:00:31 pm »
Quote
I've been told that the 9 has improved to where it's almost as potent as the .40

Nope.  There's a reason the mag holds 17 rounds.  The military changed because NATO used the 9mm and we try to keep compatible weapons for logistical reasons.  NATO used the 9mm because it was less lethal although they will not tell you that.  They also claim that the NATO round is better than the civilian round for knockdown.  Maybe marginally, but nothing compared to the .45.  After all, you don't want to actually kill the people you shoot.

I like the weapon, but it's a field nightmare primarily because of that little spring.  Lose that thing in the dirt and the weapon is done. 
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Online animal

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Gender: Male
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2024, 03:01:10 pm »
NATO round better than civilian for knockdown is hilarious
Military is limited to FMJ or TMJ for all bullets. Any commercially produced hollow point will out perform the NATO round. That said, it is a heavy loading and hotter than most commercial FMJ loads, but you can also buy commercial ammo in the same loading.
Switching from .45ACP to 9x19 had many advantages. The legendary stopping power of the .45 is largely a myth.
Avatar pic by my oldest daughter (ink and watercolor)

Offline Terri Yaki

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1917
  • Gender: Male
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2024, 03:38:33 pm »
.45 wins the argument here in PA because it will blow your whole arm off.  :cool:

Online Kathyp

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 20676
  • Gender: Female
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2024, 04:31:54 pm »
Quote
The legendary stopping power of the .45 is largely a myth.

Quote
.45 wins the argument here in PA because it will blow your whole arm off.

There are things that will stop someone better than a .45, but the .45 is multiples better than the 9mm for stopping power. 

And the type of ammo used makes a difference, so there's that calculation. 
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Offline Terri Yaki

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1917
  • Gender: Male
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2024, 04:51:31 pm »
230 grn for the .45 and 115 for the 9 for me. I have JHP bullets for both and all else I need to reload. The Mark 23 is a monster but the USP 9C carries nice and easy. I think I need a thigh holster.

Online animal

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Gender: Male
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2024, 08:27:54 pm »
E. Marshall data(1 shot stop, torso hits only):

9mm Luger:
Federal 115 gr JHP +P+                91%

.45 ACP :
Federal 230 gr. HS JHP,                96%

G Ellifritz data:

9mm One-shot-stop, any hit                           34%
 incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)   52%

.45ACP One-shot-stop, any hit                         39%
incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit)     51%
(and he added a caveat that over half of the 9mm data was FMJ ammo and that it is reasonable to assume that FMJ does not perform as well as expanding bullets)

Personally, I agree with Marshall that only the torso should be considered in a "one shot stop" evaluation.
This subject has been hotly debated for years because there are far too many variables to consider. There simply isn't any way to draw definitive conclusions without much more data... but clustered numbers are clustered numbers and they can be expected to allow comparisons between calibers within each study ... Provided that they're viewed as having a large margin of error. I would think AT LEAST 5%.

Intuitively, I like the big fat heavy slow bullet theory, but the data available doesn't really show that. Also, even if a 4 or 5 percent difference between 9mm and .45acp  is true ... when you consider 16 shots versus 8 ... 5 percent or less difference in each shot starts looking really small. 

The best conclusion I can draw is that as long as the bullet is carrying enough energy to form a significant wound channel, it'll do the job if the shot is placed correctly. As for me, I'm comfortable with the performance of .44 spl., 45ACP, 9mm, .40s&w, .357mag etc. .... 10mm, .357Sig, .44mag. are a little obnoxious in my book for people, and a little weak for bears.

I would suggest...Carry the biggest you can control easily and are comfortable with.
Avatar pic by my oldest daughter (ink and watercolor)

Online Kathyp

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 20676
  • Gender: Female
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2024, 09:49:34 pm »
Quote
Personally, I agree with Marshall that only the torso should be considered in a "one shot stop" evaluation.

The biggest variable is the condition of the person being shot.  If they are high on drugs, or even adrenalin, they will be harder to stop no matter what.  The knock back ability of whatever you are shooting can be more important than the size of the hole it makes. Of course, sometimes a .22 can do as much if not more damage because it tends to bounce around in there.   :grin:

Thus the "shoot until they stop moving" training.
Someone really ought to tell them that the world of Ayn Rand?s novel was not meant to be aspirational.

Online animal

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Gender: Male
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2024, 10:50:20 pm »
ummm the bounce around thing about .22s ...sorry, another mostly-myth. .. huge amount of BS myth concerning the .223 rem (or 5.56x45) going squirrelly upon entering a body.

.22 LR does tend to fragment or deflect when hitting a bone more than larger hunks of metal, and of course any jacketed round. However, it doesn't bounce around. Another mostly-myth is that the .22 short will penetrate a skull and then "bounce around". It doesn't. When it doesn't exit, it usually causes cracking/breaking the skull on the opposite side of the entry. It can deflect if striking the interior of the skull at a low enough angle, but it still doesn't really bounce.
Really strange things happen with bullets, though. Sometimes you can find exceptions to fit the myth. I personally know of one case where a man was shot in the forehead and the bullet traveled for a short distance between skin and skull and exited before it reached the temple. Dude literally took 4 stitches to fix  him up. 2 on the entry wound and the other 2 on the exit. (and a couple of weeks in observation at a mental hospital). One of my aunts was the shooter.
It knocked him out cold, so it counts as a one shot stop for  a .25 ACP. :cheesy:

Correction: Shoot until the threat is stopped/neutralized. Whether the target lives or dies is irrelevant. "They" implies a person. The target is not a person until they are not a threat. :wink:
Hopefully, they stop being a threat peacefully.

There is a weird thing with .22LR that is true .. the "it kills you later" thing ... but the reason is that the wound is often viewed as being not as serious as it really is, and taking the doctor by surprise a day or two later. ... itty bitty hole with a surprisingly large area of hydraulic disturbance in the surrounding tissue.


Avatar pic by my oldest daughter (ink and watercolor)

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 20029
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2024, 06:29:23 am »
Deadliness of a cartridge isn't simple and straightforward.  It's not just about ft lbs.  It's not just about bullet performance.  It's not just the diameter of the bullet.  All these things have different effects.  A 45/70 doesn't have any more ft. lbs of energy than an .25-06 (there are actually a wide variety of factory loads for a 45/70 that are all over the map).  A .22 lr is amazingly deadly for its size.  The requirements for deadliness are penetration and wound channel.  The .22 penetrates well.  But if you want reliable stopping power (making sure the threat stays down) ft. lbs are helpful, penetration  is helpful, but not as important as it is when hunting.  Etc.  Part of the problem with ft. lbs of energy can be illustrated with hammers.  You can swing a 16 oz framing hammer hard enough to get the same ft. pounds as a sawed off 6 pound sledge gets with a little tap.  But the results are drastically different.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Salvo

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1458
Re: ATF EXPERT
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2024, 07:42:29 am »
Hi Folks,

Looks like the bullets bounced off the window here:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/good-samaritan-killed-while-trying-to-help-carjacking-victim-in-lumberton/ar-BB1lFVlI :rolleyes:

I posted a link to a good story about mouse guns here a couple of years ago. It had just one "locker room" word. I'm just smiling here... Ben politely pulled it, and apologized for doing so. :cheesy:

Yeah. A lot of it depends on the attitude of the one getting shot. If they think they should fall down,... they will. IMO.

.25s?  How many of these can you take in an eye socket? (...your AUNT? Date gone bad?)

Anyone remember Phat Phil Engledrum? He and Lynn Thompson (Cold Steel) "tested" a knife and the then new Beretta model 20. A number of one-head-shot drops,... on pigs. Pretty brutal,... but both effective.

Sal

 

anything