Testing For Varroa Prior To Treatment

[Ben Framed]

Mr Bush, my angle in comparison of the two is directly in response to the concern and desire of 'this topic' in relation to the original post placed here by Salvo.  "Testing for Varroa Prior to Treatment". Therefore I wrote after your off topic post, "There 'might be' those who 'may' know more about it than Kirk Webster? Dr Samuel Ramsey comes to mind.  No harm or offence intended..."  Dr Ramsey is more qualified when it comes to 'testing for varroa'.. as well as 'many others' than Kirk Webster. I can not, have not, will not, and do not desire nor intend to compare the two men in any other way. Because 'it is' like comparing apples to oranges; Two 'totally different subjects' concerning varroa destructor, with Kirk Webster having a 'completely' different 'philosophy'.

You yourself later wrote Mr Webster does not test nor treat for varroa.. a one hundred and eighty degree turn from the original post by 'taking the opportunity' of adding the philosophy of 'treatment free bees' and 'treatment free beekeeping, as well as the opportunity 'to support those whom you admire who do' in the links you posted.. 

Even though off topic, I entertained you by 'adding' to 'your' concern of treatment free, by going back as far as three years, showing the enthusiasm by some heavy hitters in the beekeeping world and what they are up to and doing in relation, (including Sue Colby), seeking to find a "TRULY" treatment free 'line of bee', which I share that same desire. 
To make it easy for you, I placed a link for 'your' non treatment concerns in my reply#18....  Did you check out that link? If not, but do, you might find it 'very' informative.. 'Especially' the added video by Richard Noel...






 

[Ben Framed]

So just my 2 cents. I saw nothing here about CO2. I did them side by side with alcohol. wash for 3 years and it was almost a wash. I check twice a year, after treatments. Before spring flow, and before winter bee build up or fall flow. I try to run 30 to 40 hives in a yard and NEVER found 1 hive in a yard that didnt have a huge mite load. That may be 1 out of 30 but when that one crashes in the middle of summer all the rest carry mites back home. Ask me how I know?

As for beesnweeds comment
 

The best thing for mites is backyard beekeepers have tons of other excuses for low honey production and failing colonies.  To cold, to hot, pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, to dry, to wet, on and on.

These things happen every year and if you dont know whats going on in your apiary or managing correctly for where you live how do you know why your not making honey

Excellent overview Bill, IMHO.   

Phillip

[NigelP]

Yes, got to agree here. In ther Uk we have many "non treaters" who tell us how well their bees are doing, but mention honey yields and all goes quiet....EVERY time.
Just had the misfortune to inspect several hives that have not been treated for decades, what a pathetic shower of bees, 3 frames of brood at most, deformed wings and the rest of it. Owner doesn't want to treat, I've left him to it. Fortunatley they are so isolated there is unlikely to be any drift to nearby colonies.

As to the topic question, I treat every hive every year without exception and without bothering to monitor varroa levels before hand. Bit like I worm my cat and treat him for fleas every 6 months or so whether he has worms or fleas or not.  I monitor drops whilst treating (to make sure it's working)  and find a wide variation between hives.
Funny thing is most of my colonies are producing over 200lbs of surplus honey per year.
There is also scientific evidence that non treated bees are significantly lower honey producers.
https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2007/06/m6118.pdf

In this paper feral untreated bees where hived and some treated for varroa, the treated produced nearly 2x the amount of honey than untreated, suggesting that living with varroa is energetically expensive to the bees.

[Bill Murray]

As to the topic question, I treat every hive every year without exception and without bothering to monitor varroa levels before hand. Bit like I worm my cat and treat him for fleas every 6 months or so whether he has worms or fleas or not.

Thats the way I look at it also Nigel. But I still believe treatment free can be accomplished.

Getting back into beekeeping after my time off. My goal was just keeping Marleys bees alive. for three years. I Alc. washed continually and treated twice a year, on top of those treatments I spot treated with OA. if mite loads got high. My goal was to never buy bees again, and if I failed quit again. Catching swarms for me is not an option due to the mite loads they carry. I refuse to integrate that into my apiarys. I was still buying queens and requeening every year. 3 yrs later those original 2 Nucs had made us 14 hives. At that point seeing the high rate of purchased queen failures my goal was to make all our own queens, moved 1 yard onto small cell, did away with screened bottom boards, started checking with co2.Every year I am slowly expanding and growing,while at the same time trying to not let the number of hives outgrow what Marley and I can take care of. There are some things to be said here. I saw no difference in the mite count in the small cell yard. Next year I will be removing all the queens in this yard , turn all these into production hives, and allow them to requeen themselves. There will be no treatment here next year. I am thoroughly convinced the treatment free folks that are successful are that way because of a combination of factors and not just one. Staying on top of this will be time consuming but in my opinion is worth it. Co2 in my opinion is the fastest most efficient method for checking mite loads.Testing 2xs a year after treatment was sufficient for me. Having local queens of good stock, with good traits is a key factor in a successful apiary, and you cant be successful without efficient swarm control.

Hope nobody minded my rambling thoughts.

[NigelP]

No doubt about it Bill, many beekeepers are treatment free, but many don't take the time or trouble to see what mite loads they are harbouring.  Nor how honey production varies between treated vs untreated in the same apiary, a big question.
Personally I don't like my bees being parasitised so I add miticide strips once a year, leave in for 8 weeks and remove. Couldn't be simpler or less time consuming.

[Ben Framed]

"Bill Murray"
Hope nobody minded my rambling thoughts.

Absolutely not as long as Sal doesn't mind, being he started this topic. This topic has expanded, and in a 'good way' as far as I am concerned...  🤷🏻‍♂️

[Ben Framed]

"NigelP"
"but many don't take the time or trouble to see what mite loads they are harbouring."

True, and once the load if high, it is not so easy to get the mite numbers back down again, even if we successful in getting those numbers down. Kaman Reynolds did an experiment of such a hive, making a video series of that hives progress a few years ago. I posted of that experiment here at Beemaster. Our own Beeboy01 also posted a well documented, in depth topic describing his struggles in getting mite numbers down once they got out of hand. And as Nigel has found, once this occurs, honey production is in jeopardy as well as the colonies involved.

[Bill Murray]

Dont get me wrong, I truly understand the Bees/honey vrs mite-load issues. If I didnt Id be catching swarms, or buying bees every year to make up for losses. Or have just given up. But my thoughts on this, being someone who lived through the tracheal mite dilemma is to have an open mind. What Im interested in is to see if in a managed yard with a complete brood-break before summer. what the fall miteload will be going into the fall flow, then coming out of our almost nonexistent winter, then after spring build up, repeat brood-break for spring flow.  Repeat this till the end of the 3rd year. That was the longest I ever had a hive last when I wasnt treating summer of 3rd year.

[Ben Framed]

Bill I'm for you and have confidence in you and your program... I believe you know 'fully well' what you are doing. My last comment was for the benefit of new beekeepers, giving different perspectives, if the same wishes to go the non-treatment direction, there may be obstacles to consider when doing so..

What Richard Noel, Sue Colby and others in the network mentioned above are doing is seeking an actual, dependable, strain of bee that is truly 'Varroa Destructor Resistant' as well as being good honey producers, while that program with such heavy-weight world wide 'heavy' hitters seeking the same results that respected beekeepers such as kirk Webster and others are seeking. Except the program I keep mentioning is likened to 'seeking' those results on steroids, if your will. I am grateful for anyone who has what it takes to go the non-treatment route, Including Cao and Mr Bush.. I do know, that route is not for me at this time... And I am happy I do not have neighbors who keep bees, go the non-treatment route either. 
lol

Phillip

[Bill Murray]

Bill I'm for you and have confidence in you and your program.

Dont take that to far. I dont even have confidence in it yet.This has been in my mind quite a few years now and Im just getting to the stage where I can give it a try. Maybe it will work maybe not. The variables in a POA like this are huge. Im hoping it works at least partially, that way I can attempt to keep moving it forward. Because of the kinda guy I am If it fails miserably Ill probably have to wait on someone else. Or maybe because of the kinda guy I am Marley will push me to try again.

[NigelP]

European breeders have produced several strains of hygienic queens that are varroa tolerant, calm and give good honey yields. You can purchase these queens if you wish. They include Buckfast and Carniolan strains.
The problem for the hobbyists? is they do not breed true, so any queens produced from this stock are not hygienic. They need isolated mating sites with drones from queens with similar hygienic traits or Instrumental insemination to maintain these traits. Not a viable option for many.
To me it?s just so  easy to stick a couple of miticide strips in hives (after honey production is over) and take them out 8 weeks later. Probably 5 minutes per hive max.

I don?t quite understand the argument of wanting treatment free, although I can understand the desirability. To me honey bees are livestock and they need looking after in the artificial conditions we keep them in. You don?t let your cats keep breeding until you find a strain that tolerates tape worms. You treat them every 6 months with a wormer to keep them healthy and fit.

[The15thMember]

I don?t quite understand the argument of wanting treatment free, although I can understand the desirability. To me honey bees are livestock and they need looking after in the artificial conditions we keep them in. You don?t let your cats keep breeding until you find a strain that tolerates tape worms. You treat them every 6 months with a wormer to keep them healthy and fit.

For me personally, I actually try to keep all my animals with as minimal "treatments" as possible.  I don't deworm my indoor cats (if I had outdoor cats, I might).  Our indoor/outdoor dogs get a narrower spectrum of dewormer than our livestock guardian dogs who are outside in all the time.  My sister uses only natural dewormers on her goats unless she notices a serious problem. 

No doubt about it Bill, many beekeepers are treatment free, but many don't take the time or trouble to see what mite loads they are harbouring. 

This is a big key in my opinion.  All our animals (except the cats because there is really very little chance they would get any parasites living only indoors) are regularly checked for worms.  Our vet does a fecal on our dogs when they go for their annual exam, and my sister does her own fecals on her goats.  Without that information, the animal's health would have to decline severely before a problem was noticed, and in my opinion, that's not good ethical stewardship of the animal. 

[Bill Murray]

Nigel, its kinda why I raise my own chickens, used to raise my own pork, and purchase my beef from someone I know, and dont drink milk, We can also throw in there why I raised my own vegetables before my kids moved out.

No matter what Im told the hazards are to all the shots,treatments,antibiotics,fungicides,pesticides,etc,etc,etc. I actually dont buy into it. I believe that none of that is good for us, and the only reason we accept it is because we are told its so.

Im not eating my cat, or dog or horse, but I am eating the honey out of my hives. Thats why I started keeping bees originally cause I ate honey instead of sugar.

Im no tree huger or conspiracy theorist,  or even a health nut. But non of this stuff can be good for anyone as they are maturing.

[Bill Murray]

Maybe Reagan said it better.

[The15thMember]

Nigel, its kinda why I raise my own chickens, used to raise my own pork, and purchase my beef from someone I know, and dont drink milk, We can also throw in there why I raised my own vegetables before my kids moved out.

No matter what Im told the hazards are to all the shots,treatments,antibiotics,fungicides,pesticides,etc,etc,etc. I actually dont buy into it. I believe that none of that is good for us, and the only reason we accept it is because we are told its so.

Im not eating my cat, or dog or horse, but I am eating the honey out of my hives. Thats why I started keeping bees originally cause I ate honey instead of sugar.

Im no tree huger or conspiracy theorist,  or even a health nut. But non of this stuff can be good for anyone as they are maturing.

Maybe Reagan said it better.

No, I like what you added, Bill.  We feel the same way on our homestead. 

[salvo]

Hi Folks,

I'm extremely appreciative of all of the comments on this subject.

Even *treatment free* is a treatment. I read much of MB's writings on TF when I started keeping. I was here and on Beesource. My associates and club members were made up of a spectrum of developing practices.

There is a breaking point, regarding colony count, when testing and then treating and then testing again to see how effective the treatment worked is not practical nor cost effective.

There was always a statement made where *He has 100 colonies. If He looses 10 to varroa, he's lost 10% of his hives. If you have two colonies and loose only one, you've lost 50% of your holdings. If you loose two, you lost 100%.*

I'm concluding, over the years, that a breaking point may be about eight colonies. Nucs are not in this count. I think, at that point, the keeper is serious and regularly involved in the care of the colonies and in the activities necessary to maintain that number by splitting, swarm capture and maintenance, and nuc availability. That level of care, and knowledge, assures that the colony count will always be *about eight, more or less, and those invaluable nucs take up the slack.* You can *treat* however you want.

The hobbyist with only one or two colonies and limited knowledge and involvement is at a disadvantage.

Honey production runs the knife edge also. More colonies should generally yield more honey, even if the poundage from any single colony is sub-optimal.

Please continue the discussion. I'm regularly pointing this thread out to my club.

Sal

[NigelP]

N

No matter what Im told the hazards are to all the shots,treatments,antibiotics,fungicides,pesticides,etc,etc,etc. I actually dont buy into it. I believe that none of that is good for us, and the only reason we accept it is because we are told its so.

You are welcome to your beliefs Bill, it would be boring if we all felt the same about every issue.
As a scientist for most of my career I understand that many of these treatment, antibiotics fungicides etc are really beneficial to any creatures that are ill and require them.
My personal creed is that whatever livestock/pets etc of any description that I keep then I am going to provide them with the very best welfare they can get and use whatever treatments are going to be most effective to achieve this.
It perhaps says a lot that our current cat is just over 19 years old and still going strong, although his prolific mouser days are now sadly behind him.

[Ben Framed]

Well since Sal don't mind and pets have been brought up, let me tell you about my uncles Blue Heeler. Several years ago he began giving the anti flea/tick monthly pill to the pooch. The dog is now 20 years old, moving slow but still in the game. I was skeptical when he first began administering this pill to his dog, wondering if the dog would 'make it' very long after the pills were started. Thinking; "I bet he is poisoning his dog to a slow death". Apparently their were/are no side effect to this medication as far as we can tell...

Thanks for the kind words Sal toward all who have posted here concerning your topic. It is inspiring that your Beekeeping Organization is keeping up with the progress 'of' this topic. Thumbs up to you 'and' your 'local' beekeeping friends!

Phillip

[yes2matt]

    "All the boring and soul-destroying work of counting mites on sticky boards, killing brood with liquid nitrogen, watching bees groom each other, and measuring brood hormone levels?all done in thousands of replications?will someday be seen as a colossal waste of time when we finally learn to let the Varroa mites do these things for us...

    "I have never yet counted even a single sample of mites from any of my bees. I consider counting mites as a way of evaluating Varroa resistance to be fraught with all sorts of shortcomings and difficulties. It's very time consuming and hence the size of the apiary, the number of colonies tested, the gene pool, and the income available all start to shrink. It's also very easy for the results to be skewed by mites migrating from other colonies or bee yards. "?Kirk Webster

    "You don't grok the desert by counting the grains of sand."--Robert Heinlein, A Stranger in a Strange Land

"Bees that combine genuine hardiness, mite-resistance and productivity can only be maintained in the long run by having many hundreds of colonies constantly exposed to mites?and all the other known and unknown stresses in the real world, commercial beekeeping environment. This is the only way the bees can be tested for all the characteristics they need in order to thrive. And this testing and selection must continue year after year?to keep building up their resilience, and help the bees adapt to a changing world."?Kirk Webster

"I?ve thought a lot about how in the world to describe what?s really happening in an apiary that hasn?t used treatments of any kind for more than five years; where mites are now considered to be indispensable allies and friends, and where the productivity, resilience, profitability and enjoyment of the apiary are just as good as at any time in the past. I wouldn?t dream of killing any mites now, even if I had an easy and safe way of doing so."--Kirk Webster, A New Paradigm for American Beekeeping

https://kirkwebster.com/index.php/a-new-paradigm-for-american-beekeepers
https://kirkwebster.com/index.php/whats-missing-from-the-current-discussion-and-work-related-to-bees-thats-preventing-us-from-making-good-progress
https://bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beeshardestthing.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

And here is why your treatments are not very effective:
https://bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm

https://bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm

So if I'm understanding aright, "the" test for varroa is in honey production.  Good colony, good management, heavy box. Colony is inadequate to the task, light box. Dequeen and requeen with cell from heavy box. Rinse and repeat.

[yes2matt]

N

No matter what Im told the hazards are to all the shots,treatments,antibiotics,fungicides,pesticides,etc,etc,etc. I actually dont buy into it. I believe that none of that is good for us, and the only reason we accept it is because we are told its so.

You are welcome to your beliefs Bill, it would be boring if we all felt the same about every issue.
As a scientist for most of my career I understand that many of these treatment, antibiotics fungicides etc are really beneficial to any creatures that are ill and require them.
My personal creed is that whatever livestock/pets etc of any description that I keep then I am going to provide them with the very best welfare they can get and use whatever treatments are going to be most effective to achieve this.
It perhaps says a lot that our current cat is just over 19 years old and still going strong, although his prolific mouser days are now sadly behind him.

"yeah, well" I've got an eighteen year old cat who is ... treatment free.   :)   grumpy though.