Author Topic: Quuen Cells - Photos and Q's (Read 10894 times)

GT · « **on:** June 03, 2006, 02:06:02 pm »

Feedback on the first photo please. New hive from package a few months back. Looks like they're making queen cells. Advice? (sorry to those who use dial up, cant figure out how to resize the pictures).

Finsky · « **Reply #1 on:** June 03, 2006, 02:24:07 pm »

Quote from: GT

Feedback on the first photo please. New hive from package a few months back. Looks like they're making queen cells. Advice? (sorry to those who use dial up, cant figure out how to resize the pictures).

http://tashie.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album16&id=IMG_0841

http://tashie.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album16&id=IMG_0844

http://tashie.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album16&id=IMG_0847

http://tashie.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album16&id=IMG_0850

http://tashie.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album16&id=IMG_0851
http://tashie.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album16&id=IMG_0853

Finsky · « **Reply #2 on:** June 03, 2006, 02:28:24 pm »

Quote from: GT

http://tashie.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album16&id=IMG_0853

You should look if he right hive has enough room. It seems crowdy.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #3 on:** June 03, 2006, 03:01:27 pm »

Leave them alone. They look like supercedure cells (up high). They proably think they need a queen. Why, I don't know. That looks like a nice brood pattern, but the bees often know something we don't or they are determined to take a path we don't like and trying to deter them usually results in disaster.

FYI:

"JPEG Resizer" free to download from http://www.virtualzone.de

FordGuy · « **Reply #4 on:** June 04, 2006, 01:10:44 am »

Quote from: Michael Bush

Leave them alone. They look like supercedure cells (up high). They proably think they need a queen. Why, I don't know. That looks like a nice brood pattern, but the bees often know something we don't or they are determined to take a path we don't like and trying to deter them usually results in disaster.

FYI:

"JPEG Resizer" free to download from http://www.virtualzone.de

are there eggs in there? could they just be emergency cups with no eggs/larvae? I don't understnad the knowing something we don't thing, and I think their imperitive is to reproduce their kind and if that is white wax I saw deposited on the top bar, is it possible this could be the plans for a reproductive swarm, NOT a overcrowding swarm?

Finsky · « **Reply #5 on:** June 04, 2006, 01:25:25 am »

Quote from: FordGuy

[if that is white wax I saw deposited on the top bar, is it possible this could be the plans for a reproductive swarm, NOT a overcrowding swarm?

It is normal named burr. Look for BURR from book or from google.

Apis629 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 04, 2006, 12:50:48 pm »

What is the difference between a REPRODUCTIVE swarm and an OVERCROWDING swarm? I think you are confusing like terms such as "burr" and "brace" comb. Swarms are ALL for the intent of reproduction and they take place due to overcrowding.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #7 on:** June 04, 2006, 10:33:20 pm »

>are there eggs in there?

In where? The queen cells? Yes, one was capped. All were long. (not the burr comb pictures the capped comb pictures with the supercedure cells on it).

> could they just be emergency cups with no eggs/larvae?

They are long and some are capped.

> I don't understnad the knowing something we don't thing

The bees can sense if they have been cleaning out a lot of unfertilized eggs. They can sense if the queen isn't making enough QMP. They seem to be pretty accurate at sensing a queen that is about to fail. Tearing out supercedure cells all the time will quickly teach you this as you will end up with a failing queen often enough to reinforce the concept.

> and I think their imperitive is to reproduce their kind and if that is white wax I saw deposited on the top bar, is it possible this could be the plans for a reproductive swarm

Those were not swarm cells.

> NOT a overcrowding swarm?

I can't say if they are overcrowded, but that brood was solid, not all filled in with nectar, and the queen cells are high up and don't look like swarm cells.

>What is the difference between a REPRODUCTIVE swarm and an OVERCROWDING swarm? I think you are confusing like terms such as "burr" and "brace" comb. Swarms are ALL for the intent of reproduction and they take place due to overcrowding.

During the reproducti8ve swarm season, (here that's from about the first of May to the end of June) the bees are trying to cast a reproductive swarm that will have the main flow to build up on for the next winter. This is the best chance for the hive to reproduce itself. Adding supers does not deter a reproductive swarm. Of course you need to make sure they have supers or they will backfill the brood nest because they have no where to put it, but they will backfill the brood nest with nectar when preparing a reproductive swarm, on purpose so they can slim down the queen and free up the nurse bees (who are going to leave). In otherwords, they are TRYING to have a swarm.

Once you're past the reproductive swarm period, you CAN deter a swarm simply by keeping supers on. But if you DON'T keep supers on and they run out of room they will backfill the brood nest (not on purpose but because there is no where to put the nectar) and the same sequence of events will start and cause them to swarm, because they are simply out of room. This can happen anytime and is entirely because you didn't give them enough supers.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

FordGuy · « **Reply #8 on:** June 04, 2006, 11:27:17 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bush

>are there eggs in there?

In where? The queen cells? Yes, one was capped. All were long. (not the burr comb pictures the capped comb pictures with the supercedure cells on it).

does appear to be capped.

> could they just be emergency cups with no eggs/larvae?

They are long and some are capped.

> I don't understnad the knowing something we don't thing

The bees can sense if they have been cleaning out a lot of unfertilized eggs. They can sense if the queen isn't making enough QMP. They seem to be pretty accurate at sensing a queen that is about to fail. Tearing out supercedure cells all the time will quickly teach you this as you will end up with a failing queen often enough to reinforce the concept.

got it - I will learn from your experience, thank you very much! haha.

> and I think their imperitive is to reproduce their kind and if that is white wax I saw deposited on the top bar, is it possible this could be the plans for a reproductive swarm

Those were not swarm cells.

I have been calling a reproductive swarm a swarm, but I have tried to distinguish it from an overcrowding swarm. How do you distinguish if not to do as I have done?

> NOT a overcrowding swarm?

I can't say if they are overcrowded, but that brood was solid, not all filled in with nectar, and the queen cells are high up and don't look like swarm cells.

>What is the difference between a REPRODUCTIVE swarm and an OVERCROWDING swarm? I think you are confusing like terms such as "burr" and "brace" comb. Swarms are ALL for the intent of reproduction and they take place due to overcrowding.

During the reproducti8ve swarm season, (here that's from about the first of May to the end of June) the bees are trying to cast a reproductive swarm that will have the main flow to build up on for the next winter. This is the best chance for the hive to reproduce itself. Adding supers does not deter a reproductive swarm. Of course you need to make sure they have supers or they will backfill the brood nest because they have no where to put it, but they will backfill the brood nest with nectar when preparing a reproductive swarm, on purpose so they can slim down the queen and free up the nurse bees (who are going to leave). In otherwords, they are TRYING to have a swarm.

Once you're past the reproductive swarm period, you CAN deter a swarm simply by keeping supers on. But if you DON'T keep supers on and they run out of room they will backfill the brood nest (not on purpose but because there is no where to put the nectar) and the same sequence of events will start and cause them to swarm, because they are simply out of room. This can happen anytime and is entirely because you didn't give them enough supers.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

my whole point was that it may have to do with the reproductive swarm period, and have nothing to do with an overcrowding swarm, and especially nothing to do with queen supercedure.

I am not making up the notion of a "reproductive swarm." I know I read this in one of Walt Wright's articles. now whether I interpreted it correctly is another matter, but he made a distinction between a white wax period reproductive swarm, and on the other hand, an overcrowding swarm. I think the article was "you got black locust?"

Brian D. Bray · « **Reply #9 on:** June 05, 2006, 01:04:32 am »

The way you're using the terms please note: Reproductive swarms are from Mid-April to Late June. Swarms after that period could be called overcowing swarms due to inattention of the beekeeper. It is better to talk of swarms and supercedures as these can happen at any time from Mid-April until Early September.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #10 on:** June 05, 2006, 08:30:11 am »

>my whole point was that it may have to do with the reproductive swarm period, and have nothing to do with an overcrowding swarm, and especially nothing to do with queen supercedure.

You can have an overcrowding swarm anytime, yes, but they still tend to put the queen cells on the bottom of the comb and not up in the middle.

I"ve seen overcrowding swarms as early as Apirl and as late as August here.

FordGuy · « **Reply #11 on:** June 05, 2006, 09:34:48 am »

Quote from: Brian D. Bray

The way you're using the terms please note: Reproductive swarms are from Mid-April to Late June. Swarms after that period could be called overcowing swarms due to inattention of the beekeeper.

I agree with all of that.

It is better to talk of swarms and supercedures as these can happen at any time from Mid-April until Early September.

no, because you may have someone dealing with a reproductive swarm, and someone else give them the advice to open up the brood chamber, which would not help at all. Why would you not make the distinction between a reproductive swarm and an overcrowding swarm?

GT · « **Reply #12 on:** June 05, 2006, 02:02:29 pm »

I never imagined this much discussion - THANKS to all.

I've looked at everyone's opinions, and went back in to exam the frames again, then came up with the following approach - I'm doing nothing.
To address some of your points:
The hive is not crowded. 5 of 10 frames are fullor almost full. 5 havent been touched.
The cells being placed so high up makes me believe that a swarm isnt impending.
At least one of the queen cell is capped, so the chances of a new queen taking over soon look very good. I've seen enough sci-fi films to know that messing with destiny can have terrible effects on the future. Better with two queens battling it out on their own than to take out the young one myself and have the original one die out naturally very soon after.
The brood looks good to me. The hive is working hard.
Because I'll be away for a 10 days I decided to add an additional super earlier than I would ordinarily do. The bees may not be exactly ready, but with so much re-queening; brood;comb building going on, plus the knowledge that we never know for sure whats about to happen, I'm giving them more room to grow. Now instead of later.

GT · « **Reply #13 on:** June 05, 2006, 02:35:09 pm »

Please take a closer look at this one:

http://tashie.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album16&id=IMG_0846

On the 4th frame from the bottom - is that larva?

Brian D. Bray · « **Reply #14 on:** June 06, 2006, 03:42:42 am »

I'm having a problem accessing offsite links, especially photo, so I can't answer the question about larva.
As far as the rest is concerned your approach is reasonable and like all answers the more input the better the output.

>>Why would you not make the distinction between a reproductive swarm and an overcrowding swarm?

The terms swarm cells for overcrowding and supercedure for are more indicative of where on the frame the queen cells are located. A few Queen cells in the brood pattern usually denotes supercedure and a larger amount along the bottom of the frame usually denote swarming due to overcrowding. Both can result in reproductive swarming.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #15 on:** June 06, 2006, 08:20:33 am »

I have dialup and limited free time, so I don't look at the pictures unless I think it's essential. It takes hours (literally) for some of the pictures posted here to download (especially if they are not resized and cropped) at 14.4K which is often as fast a connection as I can get.

Brian D. Bray · « **Reply #16 on:** June 06, 2006, 11:17:02 am »

MB,

I'm an old fashioned beekeeper but even I use broadband and wifi when it comes to the internet. Try Clearwire--Look Ma, no lines, no cables and 54 Mbps.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #17 on:** June 10, 2006, 12:08:47 am »

>I'm an old fashioned beekeeper but even I use broadband and wifi when it comes to the internet. Try Clearwire--Look Ma, no lines, no cables and 54 Mbps.

No broadband is available where I live or I'd buy a T1. :) I have a 56K modem but the phone lines will only give me 14K.

Hi-Tech · « **Reply #18 on:** June 10, 2006, 12:15:59 am »

MB, You should be able to get satellite broadband but it is a little pricey. Have you tried a newer modem to pick up the speed? I own an ISP and modems have changed a lot in the last 3 years. The USR hardware modems seem to use the crappy phone lines better...

Of course, with you being IT, I am probably just preaching to the choir..

Michael Bush · « **Reply #19 on:** June 10, 2006, 12:29:33 am »

I had sattelite. "Burst mode" would take just as long, except you get no feedback that anything is happing. You wait 30 minites and sudeenly the picture appears, instead of gradually appearing over 30 minutes. It finally quit working all together (a software problem, apparently on their part not the antenna) and it took three months for me to find a human so they would stop billing me for a service that didn't work. They have no mailing address and even when I contested the charges on my credit card (because I couldn't get them to turn it off) they STILL wouldn't turn it off and continued to bill me. I will never do business with them again.