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Author Topic: Astounding - I don't know what happened.  (Read 1895 times)

Offline 2Sox

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Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« on: July 11, 2019, 02:03:31 am »
Because I am having work done on my house, in preparation, I had to move my 8 hives to the other side of my yard - about 20 feet away.  I was careful to do this 30 minutes before sundown so as not to confuse the last of the returning foragers. I did this one box at a time and it actually wasn't bad; I didn't even have to use any smoke.  But all eight was too much for me so I had to leave two behind in place to do the next day.

Next morning, the air was filled with confused bees looking for their homes at the original position.  Things started to settle down later in the day but those *lost* bees all attached themselves to the end hive closest to the place of the ones I moved. And there was NO fighting! Calm as can be. ( No, this hive was not in swarm prep mode; I had checked just a few days before, did not have the numbers - constantly checkerboard and I have my eyes open for this.) It's as if a few thousand bees from several colonies just decided to adopt each other and live together.

After sundown, I looked in the yard and found that I literally have so many bees hanging from the front entrance and down the front boxes of this hive that I could scoop them up and start a new colony. It's like a HUGE swarm.

I can't figure out why the majority of the bees didn't pick up the scent of the bees fanning in my moved hives.

I'm thinking of using them just that way - to start a new "split" right next door.  A little lemon grass in the new box, some frames of brood, and let them be.

My questions: What the heck happened? What are your suggestions?  Thanks.
 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 02:19:24 am by 2Sox »
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2019, 02:28:00 am »
What happened is pretty obvious.  It is no mystery.  You moved their home.  But they do not know the new location.  The bees went to work for the day and came back to their hive, the only hive where they know theirs is/was. 
Next time move them ALL or NONE.  Even had you moved them all, there would be masses of bees aimlessly wandering around the old location for a couple weeks. If there are NO hives at the old location they may eventually find their hive and be in for the night.  Or they may cluster in the grass at the old spot and die to the exposure. The next day, same thing will happen. This will go on until all the old bees die off an only the new bees that have oriented to the new location are left. It can take weeks.
To be frank, you have created quite a mess and seriously upset the population age balance of all of the hives. Your previously good healthy balanced hives are now at risk of crashing.
The best thing you could do now is move them all back, each hive to its original location and give them time to get back to their own homes.  Leave for one week.  Then if you really need to move them, load them into your truck and take to a friends property 10 miles away.  Bring them back after you are done with the house.

Ages old adage of moving bees
        3 feet or 3 miles

I prefer 10 miles.

Here is a decent write-up
http://www.bermondseystreetbees.co.uk/three-feet-or-three-miles
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 02:10:15 pm by TheHoneyPump »
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2019, 04:38:33 am »
To add some explanation - the filed bees orient to the hives location. When they wake up in a new location, they don't pay attention and fly off for the days work via memory. When they come home, by memory, they can't find the hive because it's moved. So their lost.

HP's advice is correct - put the hives back for a week so they can find their home again - then move them several miles away. They will re-orient at the new location and be fine.

I've always heard - you can move a hive 2 feet (max) or 2 miles (minimum) - nothing in between works. ... but you can move a hive 3 (ish) feet per day - that works too.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2019, 10:30:33 am »
I have moved colonies more than 20 feet with little loss of adults, but I moved all colonies at the same time and left nothing at the original spot to attract foragers that first return to that location.

When moving in the same yard restrict the opening with paper towels to a very small opening, place obstructions in front of the entrance so the bees that exit must fly around/through the obstructions.  Make it unhandy for the bees so they will remember that something has occurred and that they reorient on home.  Keep the obstructions for 2 days and then remove the paper towels from the entrance and alter the obstructions somewhat, after 2 more days you can remove the obstructions.  There will be some drift but it will be very little.


Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2019, 10:55:18 am »
All good advice.
Keep in mind, most nights each hive can have a thousand or more sleeping in the field.
Even if you force the bees to reorient to the new location, the old field bees will return to the old location and then fly to the new one.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline 2Sox

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2019, 11:04:56 am »
I have moved colonies more than 20 feet with little loss of adults, but I moved all colonies at the same time and left nothing at the original spot to attract foragers that first return to that location.


Good to know. This was my original plan - and my original thinking. Just couldn't get it done in one night.
Went out to the backyard and that enormous mass of bees is gone. Will be opening that hive today to see what's what.

And yes, HoneyPump, I agree, it is rather obvious. I thought I made that clear, and I am duly scolded, but my choices were very limited.  Thanks for your insight. And for the link to the article.

"Three feet or three miles" is a lesson learned.  Thanks, guys.  But there was NO other option. I don't have a truck and I live in NEW YORK CITY (not Manhattan, an *outer borough* Queens, but the city nonetheless). The construction will begin in one week. Not putting them back in original location.

Activity in the other hives seems to be getting back to normal.  Less *lost* bees flying around. Will be moving the remaining hives tonight.

But that mass of bees I described in my original post; still a mystery to me.  Unless, of course it was a pre-swarm behavior, which as I indicated, I highly doubt.  But, as I wrote above, I will be checking.

Jim, I can see the logic in what you write. And it's precisely for this reason that I begin each of my cutouts midday or later in the afternoon to get as many workers as I can before I leave. And I always tell the clients that they will see bees returning to the location for a week or more.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 11:23:01 am by 2Sox »
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2019, 11:42:59 am »
Just spoke with my wife and she had a very good suggestion:  Move the 2 remaining hives a little each day, and by the time the workers arrive, they will be in the new location. A very good idea for the two hives remaining.  Would be impractical doing it with all eight over the course of a week.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2019, 02:16:25 pm »
That proposal for the two hives is mot a good idea. It will just perpetuate the problem you have created. The other hive bees will continue to be picked up by them, daily. At this point, just move them to their intended final location. Also at this point the time of day to do the move is irrelevant. Move them asap. Then in one week, after the bees have each settled into which hive she wants to be in - Go into all of the hives and get to work levelling the populations by moving frames of brood and bees around.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline FloridaGardener

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2019, 03:51:42 pm »
I crept mine over at one point, but on the final night I had to go further than 2 ft, to meet a deadline. 

So I left a cardboard box with small entrance at the last location, containing a little empty comb - a "faux hive" that became a Bee Bus.
 
At dusk I picked up the box of bewildered bees, and took them to entrance of the hives. They had just enough light to fly into their "real hive." 

Since a few were in the grass the first time (I tried to load them into the Bee Bus), I set the box on a sheet so they could see it and walk in.  I did that for 4 days until no more got in the Bus each evening. The branch "signal" in front helped as they exited, but it took a few days.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2019, 04:15:00 pm »
Floridagardiner just reminded me: when 1 of my hives got knocked over by a downed tree earlier in the year, I had to move the hive about 15 ft. I placed an empty hive (BB, body w/comb, IC, and Cover) on the ground at the old location. All the bees on the ground marched into the hive. After dusk, I took the hive body with covers, to the new hive location, removed the existing covers on the new hive, and placed the body on the top of the hive with all the bees inside. Then I placed another hive body on the BB on the ground - just in case. My theory was that the bees in the top box would have to go thru the hive to exit, and might figure out the location change in the process.

No bees came to the hive on the ground the 2nd day. Not 1. Maybe this helps.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2019, 05:14:36 pm »
Alan,
I have done the same thing. Sometimes I put the whole box for the night and sometimes I just shake the bees into the top of the box and close it up. Both work. Sometimes I do have to do it on the second day but not usually.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline 2Sox

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2019, 06:01:49 pm »
That proposal for the two hives is mot a good idea. It will just perpetuate the problem you have created. The other hive bees will continue to be picked up by them, daily. At this point, just move them to their intended final location. Also at this point the time of day to do the move is irrelevant. Move them asap. Then in one week, after the bees have each settled into which hive she wants to be in - Go into all of the hives and get to work levelling the populations by moving frames of brood and bees around.

Nah. I liked my wife's suggestion better.  Besides, it worked. There were very few stragglers flying to the old locations this morning. The populations for these two hives were disoriented for about 20 minutes - literally - and then settled right in.  Three feet more tomorrow.

What do you mean by "leveling the populations"?
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2019, 06:04:25 pm »
I crept mine over at one point, but on the final night I had to go further than 2 ft, to meet a deadline. 

So I left a cardboard box with small entrance at the last location, containing a little empty comb - a "faux hive" that became a Bee Bus.
 
At dusk I picked up the box of bewildered bees, and took them to entrance of the hives. They had just enough light to fly into their "real hive." 

Since a few were in the grass the first time (I tried to load them into the Bee Bus), I set the box on a sheet so they could see it and walk in.  I did that for 4 days until no more got in the Bus each evening. The branch "signal" in front helped as they exited, but it took a few days.

Ingenious.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2019, 06:05:28 pm »
Floridagardiner just reminded me: when 1 of my hives got knocked over by a downed tree earlier in the year, I had to move the hive about 15 ft. I placed an empty hive (BB, body w/comb, IC, and Cover) on the ground at the old location. All the bees on the ground marched into the hive. After dusk, I took the hive body with covers, to the new hive location, removed the existing covers on the new hive, and placed the body on the top of the hive with all the bees inside. Then I placed another hive body on the BB on the ground - just in case. My theory was that the bees in the top box would have to go thru the hive to exit, and might figure out the location change in the process.

No bees came to the hive on the ground the 2nd day. Not 1. Maybe this helps.

Really good thinking.  Great ideas here.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Astounding - I don't know what happened.
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2019, 11:53:00 pm »
I crept mine over at one point, but on the final night I had to go further than 2 ft, to meet a deadline. 

So I left a cardboard box with small entrance at the last location, containing a little empty comb - a "faux hive" that became a Bee Bus.
 
At dusk I picked up the box of bewildered bees, and took them to entrance of the hives. They had just enough light to fly into their "real hive." 

Since a few were in the grass the first time (I tried to load them into the Bee Bus), I set the box on a sheet so they could see it and walk in.  I did that for 4 days until no more got in the Bus each evening. The branch "signal" in front helped as they exited, but it took a few days.

Floridagardiner just reminded me: when 1 of my hives got knocked over by a downed tree earlier in the year, I had to move the hive about 15 ft. I placed an empty hive (BB, body w/comb, IC, and Cover) on the ground at the old location. All the bees on the ground marched into the hive. After dusk, I took the hive body with covers, to the new hive location, removed the existing covers on the new hive, and placed the body on the top of the hive with all the bees inside. Then I placed another hive body on the BB on the ground - just in case. My theory was that the bees in the top box would have to go thru the hive to exit, and might figure out the location change in the process.

No bees came to the hive on the ground the 2nd day. Not 1. Maybe this helps.

Good stuff !!!
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

anything