Rotating in foundantionless honey super frame into deep box

[RobEdge]

Aloha,
I've added a medium super over the brood box and bees aren't drawing comb. I decided to pull one of deep frames out of the brood box and replace it with one of the undrawn medium frames(Starter Strip) in hopes that they'll draw comb on it and I can move it back up to the super to help encourage them to start drawing comb up there.

Notes;
-This is my first hive.
-These bees do not like foundation. It started when I moved them from the nuc to the full deep and used foundation frames but after a long time all they ever did was draw leafs that hung off the side of the foundation and one small section of actual comb against the foundation that I eventually abandoned. I started swapping out the foundation frames with stater strip frames and they were happy to draw on those.
-The deep frame I pulled out to make space for the undrawn medium frame has capped and uncapped honey as well as some larva that I didn't see until i got it in better light. I cut out the small sections of larva and have the frame where ants wont find it(hopefully).
-Plenty pollen coming in the hive and nectar appears to be around.

Questions;
1-How long can I have the deep frame sitting out of the hive? Is it a good idea to hold it on the side and put it back 'as is' when done drawing out the medium frames?
2-Is it a good idea to keep rotating in new medium undrawn frames from the super into the same spot until I have a few that will encourage the bees to draw the rest?

Mahalo!

[herbhome]

Your deep frame will store just fine as long as it is out of the weather and not attacked by wax moths. Spray it down with BT or place in a freezer to be sure. You need to pull the medium up as soon as they get started on it or they will draw out the bottom of the frame to fill in the empty space, making a mess. You could keep rotating mediums but I suspect once they get one drawn in the super they will continue with it's neighbors.

[cao]

Welcome 

I would put the deep frame in the freezer until you are ready to put it back in the hive.  As far as rotating the medium frames, I would think that once you got a few of them started the bees should continue with the rest. 

[BeeMaster2]

What CAO and herb said.
Jim Altmiller

[herbhome]

BTW,

Welcome, RobEdge

[Oldbeavo]

Some times getting bees to do what we want them to do is pretty difficult, bees do what they want to.
May be why they wont draw the frames in the super is that they don't need to. They don't do things they don't have to.
Drawing comb is a high energy input from the bees, so again why do it if there isn't a need.
I would suspect that the honey flow is not big enough to make it necessary to draw comb, also if the nectar flow and pollen were coming in rapidly the queen would be laying a lot and so the need for more comb.

[van from Arkansas]

Rob, Aloha to you as well.

Question 1. has been well addressed.  So I am providing input for question 2.

Old Beavo said it well as stated WAX is very energy requiring.  For one pound of wax to be produced honeybees require 5 pounds of honey.  For bees to produce 1 pound of honey they must collect approx 5 pounds of nectar.  Nectar is mostly water, as much as 80% in some cases but that varies.

If you desire I can provide the chemistry and math on a molecular basis to support the above.  For now I don?t think we need that.  To make Old Beavo point, wax is very expensive both in labor and food conversion.

1.  Here is a little trick I learned to encourage production of wax frames.  I spray or brush the unwaxed frames with 2X sugar.  The bees will immediately start collecting the sugar and in the majority of times begin waxing out the frames.
2. Provide sugar syrup to the bees.  The sugar can be converted to wax just as honey.  I use inframe feeders to avoid robbing, no oils, just sugar syrup and be very careful not to spill, not a single drop or robbing can occur.

One last note, if you freeze the frames, which is a good idea, understand the wax is very delicate.  If you drop a frozen frame the wax will shatter like glass.  Touch a wax cell and it will break.  Most bee supply outfits will not ship solid wax frames in mid winter as the break so easily in shipping due to cold.

Best of all good things.
Van

[RobEdge]

I appreciate the replies. All good advice for me to learn, and build confidence. I?ll take a look in few more days and see if they saw the empty frame as an opportunity to draw comb or if they were neither here nor there about it.

Would it be harmful to leave the super on for a long time if they just aren?t interested in drawing out the super frames?

Van- I had that idea and put some of the honey  that came off the deep frame I pulled. My thinking was more to draw them up there but I see know I would need to feed them a decent amount to help them produce wax.

More back story...
Just over 6 weeks ago the hive swarmed an I lost my queen and a bunch of bees. I eventually saw the new queen(one of the happiest moments) and that she was laying. I?m hoping to see a population boom soon and with that they move up to draw comb. That is if they are so inclined..

[Oldbeavo]

If you leave the super on and they don't need it, they spend energy nectar/honey keeping this extra space warm.
As we use a lid with 1 1/2' rim and no hive mat, when the bees start building wax and putting honey in the lid, then this is a sign that they have run out of room in the bottom box and will appreciate some space of a new super.

[RobEdge]

Oldbeavo-Thanks, I only use a similar lid, and no inner cover or mat. I'm not sure if our Hawaii temps get low enough for the bees to get concerned about being to cold but it makes sense to just look for the signs of wax/honey in lid. On my setup there really doesn't appear to be much room from the top of the frames to the bottom of the lid but I'm sure they will try to squeeze in some wax where they can.

[ed/La.]

I like to use one size frame for everything. That way you can move them around. I use all deep frames because less boxes to build and that is what I started with. All mediums would be nice because boxes are lighter.

[Oldbeavo]

The size of the gear you use is dependant on a few factors
Starting with the biggest, 10 frame, full depth, OK for young BK's, less boxes and frames per kg/pound on honey harvested.
Next, 8 frame full depth, good for most, but as I get late into my 6th decade, a super full of honey is getting heavy.
Medium or WSP in OZ, 8 frame is the most usable no matter what age you are.
Ideals to me are just a pain, relatively expensive for boxes and frames, alot of handling in boxes and frames for your honey.
Commercially, having mixes of sizes is hard to deal with, transport, harvesting.

[The15thMember]

The size of the gear you use is dependant on a few factors
Starting with the biggest, 10 frame, full depth, OK for young BK's, less boxes and frames per kg/pound on honey harvested.
Next, 8 frame full depth, good for most, but as I get late into my 6th decade, a super full of honey is getting heavy.
Medium or WSP in OZ, 8 frame is the most usable no matter what age you are.
Ideals to me are just a pain, relatively expensive for boxes and frames, alot of handling in boxes and frames for your honey.
Commercially, having mixes of sizes is hard to deal with, transport, harvesting.

Great advice here, I just want to add something that I failed to consider when I was deciding what size boxes to use. I?m pretty weak, so I use all 8 frame mediums, but if I had to do it over again, I may have gone with 10 frame equipment just because of availability. In my area everyone uses 10 frame equipment, which means the closest store to me that carries 8 frame stuff is an hour away. Not a huge deal, since I can order anything I need, but it is a little inconvenient if I have an emergency and need to get equipment fast.  Just another thing you may want to consider.

[Oldbeavo]

Would still use 8 frame gear for a 1 hour drive, but there is a standard that applies to bee keeping, think how much you need and then buy double that, because you will run out quicker than you planned.
Think about it!

[The15thMember]

Would still use 8 frame gear for a 1 hour drive, but there is a standard that applies to bee keeping, think how much you need and then buy double that, because you will run out quicker than you planned.
Think about it!

I learned that one the hard way a couple weeks ago.  There's a reason that I realized I didn't have access to 8-frame equipment in an emergency.