Splitting Questions

[PhilK]

We've done some brood inspections and seen lots of drone brood, some little queen cups, and plenty of fresh white wax so I think swarms are coming up soon. We're planning on splitting our hives to prevent swarming (like an artificial swarm), keeping some nucs for ourselves and selling some. We've only split once before so I am a bit unsure on the process.

Would you recommend splitting into nucs, or splitting into a 10 frame hive? Obviously we remove the old queen with the split and allow the bees left behind to raise a new one. Often they will create more than one queen cell, so is there a chance the hive will swarm anyway with more than one queen hatching out?

Thanks
Phil

[cao]

Would you recommend splitting into nucs, or splitting into a 10 frame hive?

It would depend on how much of an increase you want to make.  If you just want to keep them from swarming and want to get a honey harvest, I would just split them in half.  If you are want to maximize your increase, I like to remove the queen with a couple of frames of food and put them in a nuc to build up to a full hive by the end of the year.  Then check the original hive in a week for capped queen cells.  I put each frame with at least one queen cell in a separate nuc(leaving at least one queen cell in original hive).  Then add a frame or two of honey/pollen in each nuc.  Last year I was able to turn one overwintered strong hive into 10(the original hive, the original split with the old queen, and 8 nucs).

[eltalia]

Phil, you're in Brissy proper, right?
Split into a 10fr Lang and use a space block - make one from foam if needed.
Start with minimum of 6 frames and keep an eye on them as flows come in.
Bee SHB aware, always.
These things tend to get away from you when it warms up, you will need to
have gear ready to go into the box.

Cheers.

Bill

[PhilK]

Thanks for the replies - good idea cao. I think we'll split a bunch in half then make some nucs for sale as well!

[PhilK]

If I just want to split the hive in half, will it be a concern that the queenless half will have many queen cells? Will that make them swarm?

[PhilK]

Sorry to bug again. Split the hive this morning. Queen and 5 frames moved into a 10 frame box with the other frames being stickies. Shook a bunch of nurse bees and super bees in as well - hopefully they'll stay put.

When should I check back for QCs in the original hive? Is there a time when QCs should not be disturbed?

Thanks
Phil

[cao]

I usually check a week later.  By then they should be capped or very close.  A week later, they should be hatching.  I usually give the newly hatched queen a couple of weeks undisturbed to mate and start laying.

I think a couple days around day 10 the QC shouldn't be disturbed(don't quote me on that).

[eltalia]

I butted out Phil as these words from <cao> are pivot point important;
"It would depend on how much of an increase you want to make."
Therein lies decisions only an advanced BK would tackle.

Now I read your inclusion of "stickies" in splitting the queen-right sector away from
their known broodchamber I have to ask, did you remove one split from the yard?
Or something else?
Have you installed a queen-restrictor to the queen-right split away box entrance?

Cheers.

Bill

[Acebird]

If I just want to split the hive in half, will it be a concern that the queenless half will have many queen cells? Will that make them swarm?

Positively no.  The queenless half will not swarm.  Depending on a whole bunch of things the queen right side could still swarm.  So two weeks to a month later I split that hive again.  With two splits it insures that you have an increase and the swarming urge is overcome.  My overwintered hives are 4 - 5 medium boxes 8 frame (around two deeps).  Starting with hives of this size the queen right side of the splits grow to 7-8 boxes so I usually harvest two medium boxes from a hive I split twice.  If the queenless side succeeds in getting a mated queen back it usually produces one box.  I don't know how strong and long your flows are so I don't know if you can get the same results.  You will have to speak with locals about flows.

[gww]

Ace
I did a teronove split and I left all the queen cells in the part with the old bees.  That hive did swarm twice in two days.  I am thinking it might be prudent on the queenless side to cull the queen cells down to just one or two that are close to each other rather then do like I did and just leave them all.  I am not as confident that the queenless side will not swarm as the virgins hatch.

I am a newer bee keeper then you and so do not intend this to be advice for the op but just pointing out one thing that happened to me and my view of what might have helped stop the swarms.  In the end culling may have just left me with a queenless hive when they swarmed anyway.  My split was differrent then just splitting a hive in half.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

Hold the phone ... if there were queen cells prior to splitting then that means the original hive already decided to swarm and in that case it will swarm.  I took "queen cells" as emergency queens as a result of being queenless and in this case it will not swarm.

[gww]

Ace
And yes, in my case the hive had decided and maby even swarmed before I did the teronov split.  I did not change thier mind dang it.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

Ace
And yes, in my case the hive had decided and maby even swarmed before I did the teronov split.  I did not change thier mind dang it.
Cheers
gww

The only way I can think of making them change their mind is to wait 4 days, remove the queen and cull all the cells then add a cell or virgin queen in a couple of days.  In other words queenless with no way of making cells.  I can't say that it would be fool proof.

[gww]

Ace
I may try that some time.  I am just starting and so decided getting four hives from one would be ok on my first year even though my starting goal was to try and make honey.  I have since killed one of the swarms by feeding with a leaky feeder and starting robbing, twice.

I still have three from it if I can get them through winter and at some point I will really have to work on getting better at swarm control.  I am willing to take my set backs and think about how they happened and look for ways like your suggestion that I might try next time.
Thats what I like about these discussions, learning more options.  Now if I can just get my mind to give some recall of said options when they are needed.  That will be the trick.
Cheers
gww

[Acebird]

Now if I can just get my mind to give some recall of said options when they are needed.  That will be the trick.

I can't remember poop.  So if you see or read something that you want to come back to keep a note book and write the date, name of poster and what the interest was.  For example: todays date, "acebird" "splits".  Do an advanced search for "acebird" and "splits" and any post that I used the word "splits" will come up.  Just select the post with that date.  Of course there will be several people that you may want to check with on that topic, so back page back to search replace my name with theirs and run search again.  To me it is kind of fascinating how fast the search finds the posts.

[eltalia]

Loathe as I am to bring contradiction into Phil's thread - I deliberately butted out once  already -
in the interest of the OP's education I quote you, Acebird, to say this is wrong, wholly not so at all;

>Hold the phone ... if there were queen cells prior to splitting then that means the original
>hive already decided to swarm and in that case it will swarm.

Yes, it is the widely touted conclusion by many, and acted on in that belief.
But it aint necessarily so, and certainly isn't the prompt to split as a _swarm control_ method in this
case, and a host of other imminent Spring scenarios.
It is way more likely the colony is looking at supercede. Swarming is more likely after the initial
Spring build, and as temperatures rise above 30C with sufficient foraging available.

IF Phil was not looking at expanding the yard - expansion being what he has implied as a later s
seasonal swarm prevention - then the safest and most productive measure is to fit a queen
restrictor and let the bees sort it out.

Moot now as the colony has been split, albeit in what reads as being a rather agricultural (feral)
manner.... but with luck and fair weather the bees will get over that too.

Cheers.


Bill

[gww]

Bill
What are you talking about when you say queen restrictor.  Are you saying a queen excluder under a super or are you saying a queen excluder at the entrance of the hive?

My bees swarmed way before it got to 30 c this year.  I was not prepared.
Thanks
gww

[eltalia]

@gww

A method to deny the queen leaving tbe hive, ol' mate.

There are products sold that offer "beespaces" for all scenarios but I simply
use a strip of light metal (aluminium for me) held by two scews sitting
within slots at each end. The device doubles as a entrance closer when
shifting a hive body.
Got it?

Picking numbers is always fraught with danger..about all one could bet on is
that if it rains on a 30+C day your bees are not going to swarm... well not
"Down Under" anyways :-))

Cheerio...

Bill

[gww]

Bill
Ok, I got it.  Do you leave a way for drones to leave?

Picking numbers is always fraught with danger..about all one could bet on is
that if it rains on a 30+C day your bees are not going to swarm... well not
"Down Under" anyways :-))

But look out on the first day after the rain that the sun comes out.
Cheers
gww

[PhilK]

Now I read your inclusion of "stickies" in splitting the queen-right sector away from their known broodchamber I have to ask, did you remove one split from the yard? Or something else?
Have you installed a queen-restrictor to the queen-right split away box entrance?

No I left both the original hive and the new split in the same yard, but the new split with the old queen in it is a few metres away from the original hive. Is this going to be a problem? No I didn't fit any queen restrictor.

So two weeks to a month later I split that hive again.  With two splits it insures that you have an increase and the swarming urge is overcome.

This is my issue. We have 14 hives. To stop swarming I need to split all hives twice? That's 56 hives - no way am I ready for that many hives. And I have to do this every year?
My concern is that I don't want my bees to swarm but I don't want to double my numbers every time.. We are looking for a little increase but nothing more than we can manage.