Going in the other direction ...

[little john]

On this forum I've heard quite a few people converting from Deeps to Mediums. One reason for doing so, as I understand it, is that mediums are much lighter to lift when conducting multi-box inspections.

I've spent the last couple of days investigating the underlying rationale of Charles Dadant's beehives, and I can now see 'where he's coming from'.

So - it would appear that there is another direction which could be taken. Rather than 'down-sizing' to mediums, one could 'up-size' to Jumbo-Langstroths. By doing this, a full-sized colony could then be housed in one brood box, so that there is no longer any need to lift brood boxes when conducting an inspection - as the one and only brood box stays on the ground. All you have to lift are any supers on top of it.

It gets better - there's no longer any need for queen excluders; there's a marked reduction in the urge to swarm; larger comb areas lead to larger colonies which over-winter better, and so on ...

If anyone's interested in considering this alternative approach, there's a good explanation of how the current box size state-of-play came to be, in:  http://chestofbooks.com/animals/bees/History/Chapter-IV-The-Hive-Controversy.html

And for the full dope on Dadant's methodology:
http://www.nwpabeekeepers.com/uploads/1/6/4/8/16484234/dadant_system_of_beekeeping_1920.pdf

or, for more formats (I prefer .djvu):
https://archive.org/download/cu31924003428897

Hope it's of interest ...
LJ

[Acebird]

LJ the design of the boxes is based on commercial endeavors with efficiency in mind to reap the greatest amount of income with the least investment.  That all changes when you consider the back yard beek.  The back yard beek is not efficient.  He spends way too much time on each colony for what he/she gets out of it (monetary).
A carpenter who is trying to make a living will have dedicated tools to improve his efficiency where as a homeowner might buy a "shop smith", one tool that does everything.
The medium box is the perfect solution for the back yard beek because it can be used for every function that is required for a sustainable apiary.  You can raise brood in it, you can store honey in it and you can raise queens.  Trying to go with all deeps or all shallows poses some undesirable problems as with keeping varying size boxes for a small apiary.
Now if you want to go to a Jumbo size box how do you start a colony (small split) in such a box without having more equipment?

[little john]

At the moment this is all new to me, so I don't have answers to difficult questions (yet ... ).  But when making splits or introducing nucs etc., Dadant recommends the use of a partition board to adjust the volume and thus the comb size available.

Perhaps I ought to explain how I came across this recent 'discovery':  many years ago I built a 4ft KTBH, only to quickly discover that top-bar beekeeping wasn't for me.  Now I hate waste, and so a couple of years back I decided that, rather than put it on the bonfire, I'd convert said KTBH into a straight-sided framed Long Hive.  Purely by chance, it evolved into a 12" deep box and, just as your Deeps are 9", so are ours (they're just a little shorter than Langs).  So I ended up making an Xtra-Deep (12") Dual Long Hive.

I duly 'stored' a couple of colonies in it which weren't very impressive, whilst they awaited re-queening.  But - when I next looked in that hive, both colonies had exploded.  And by 'exploded' I mean they had filled combs wall-to-wall and top to bottom with brood. Now to see such a huge slab of brood is truly awesome.  On the next frame the same. Then a frame of drones - again, top to bottom and wall-to-wall. Same with a pollen frame and exactly the same with a honey comb.  None of your oval brood patterns with a crescent-shaped arc of pollen over, and the top corners built-out thick with honey ... for some strange reason the extra 3" had changed their behaviour completely.

I have since created two more 14x12 (12" deep) colonies, and they are behaving in exactly the same way. Four colonies, each of which is powerful beyond belief when compared with every other colony on this site.

Then, during an email exchange with a friend on the South Coast of England who runs Dadants, I mentioned this unusual behaviour in passing.  He replied that what I had described is exactly what he sees with his Modified Dadant hives - so this is not a fluke, it's got something to do with comb size, and I'm as puzzled as anyone as to why a few extra inches of comb should make such a difference to a colony's behaviour.

It seems to me that the Dadant concept is similar in principle to other fixed-volume hives, insomuch as there is just one brood chamber, the volume of which never changes.

Well, I'm so intrigued by this that I've already started building a set of 14"x14" Xtra-Xtra-Deep frames for one of my British Nationals, which will then fit into a Brood Box over a Super (the so-called 'Brood and a Half' configuration, which normally employs two frames) but using single frames instead as Dadant recommends.  It's just an experiment at this stage, just to see what results.

LJ

[tjc1]

Interesting stuff, LJ. Keep us informed of your progress/results. Instinctively, I can see how large comb would be more 'natural' to bees, having seem photos of wold hives that create some massive comb. That said, I have changed to all mediums (except for honey supers) for the reasons already noted: ease of manipulation (lower weight) and the ability to easily switch frames between hives, whether of brood or stores.

[little john]

"Interesting" - yes, that just about sums it up for me too ...

My whole operation has been built-up around just one frame size - the National Deep - which is 14"x9" (external measurement, less lugs).  I've got more boxes and frames in this size than I'll readily own up to (this being an open forum, and the tax man might be listening-in ...). 

A one-size frame operation HAS to make the most sense - for one of the reasons you give: ease of swapping frames between colonies. Couldn't agree more.  My 12" deep frames only arrived 'by accident' - that size certainly didn't form any part of 'Plan A' - and already they're proving to be a pain in the butt, in terms of frame-swapping.

So I would very much prefer to avoid having a third frame size.  And, to be honest about this, I really don't want to believe that larger frame sizes are significantly beneficial in some mysterious way - but the evidence IS mounting up.  One of the many reasons for my choice of the National Deep is that near enough every beekeeper in this country has been using these since 1940 - and it feels very weird indeed to be bucking the system like this.

I do have quite a lot of Long Hives, which (with one exception) also house National Deep frames, and one feature of these which I particularly like is that only the one box needs to be opened during an inspection - that's great !  Indeed, I find myself moaning when I come to inspect multi-box hives which require dismantling just to get into the brood chamber.  But - that's a personal preference thing from someone who's getting older and less fit as each year passes.

So - for now, I'll just make one set of 14x14 frames and see what happens - an experiment, curiosity, a bit of fun, that kind of thing.  Here's a shot of the first frame I made yesterday, with one of my National Deeps alongside for comparison.  Overnight I've sourced some very long bamboo skewers, so I intend using those rather than my usual practice of wiring frames using fishing line, in view of the extra weight which these 'barn doors' will be carrying.  LJ

[Acebird]

Who makes an extractor for these monster frames?

[little john]

Well - who makes an extractor for the 14"x12" frames which are already very popular over here ?

I think you'll find the reason that such extractors don't exist is because these are BROOD frames, and - call me old-fashioned - but I've never considered that putting brood frames into an extractor to be a very smart thing to do.

If I really wanted such an extractor, then I'd simply make one - but I don't, so I won't.


Ok - this is the BIG attraction for me of this size of frame - it's because (unlike existing 14x12's) it will fit exactly into a Deep over a Shallow (or a Brood over a Super, in the old money) - so there's no need whatsoever to fabricate any custom boxes.  And as a bonus, by sheer coincidence the comb area is exactly (to the square inch) the same as that recommended by Dadant.




So - by keeping the Super in place like this as a nadir, I can install (say) three shallow combs into one side of the 'Super', with three of my regular Deeps hanging over them - that will get a Nuc from one of my 3-frame mating nucs into the box to start off with - so there'll be no need to resort to using swarms.  The rest of the frames will be 14x14, and I'll make a partition divider to regulate the volume during the early weeks.  It's beginning to look quite promising.

LJ

[Acebird]

If I really wanted such an extractor, then I'd simply make one - but I don't, so I won't.

Supposing you have a modest overwinter loss say 10 - 15%.  Most likely these hives are full of overwintered honey or nectar.  Now you can only use these monster size frames in this monster size arrangement.  Are you really thinking everything is going to be rosy and you will not have to interchange frames or empty honey out of them?

[OldMech]

   It will create its own problems, but most of those issues can be dealt with in one way or another. The basic principle, experimenting to see what happens is the fun part. I personally look forward to seeing how it works out for you!!
  I DO like the idea of not fussing with the brood chamber, but by the same token, I move hives, a LOT...   I start hives in my home yards, and when they are up and running move them to outyards.. if something happens, they get weak etc, they come back home where I can fuss with them more often..    Beyond that, I have 100+ hives on four hive pallets.. using deep frames on those pallets might prove beneficial, but I have not gotten past the ease of manipulation, either in boxes or frames of having all mediums.   It is just too easy to have all the same size frames and boxes.
   I can sell medium nucs to folks that use deeps, but I cant sell deep nucs to folks that use only mediums..   strange frame sizes would really throw a monkey wrench into the works here, but I do still feel the draw of tinkering!!!!   

   CC Miller, 50 years among the bees...   

  In visiting and talking with other bee-keepers I am generally Prejudiced enough to think my plans are, on the whole, better than theirs and yet I am always very much interested to know just how they manage, especially as to the little details of common operations, and occasionally I find something so manifestly better than my own way, that I am compelled to throw aside my Prejudice and adopt their better way.

    How old is that book?  He passed away in 1920, so the book may be 95ish years old, and nothing has changed!   

[yes2matt]

I had once ten "medium" frames in a medium box over top of eight "deep" frames in a deep box, and two frames worth of gap in the deep box. Of course the bees built there first, so I had a couple frames with about fifteen inches of comb. Loaded with brood , it was a beautiful sight (and thankfully they drew it straight!

It was so heavy when full that I couldn't hold it to take a picture. 

Which is only to say, use your good glue and nail it tight, lots of weight on those joins.

[Culley]

I started out with a whole lot of 10 frame deep equipment so that is what I am using, with a handful of 8 frame and 5 frame boxes. I am pretty happy with it. To change my apiary into mediums would mean more boxes, more frames, more nails...