Foundation less frames?

[Rob Sandberg]

I am new so feel free to laugh.  I decided to go foundation less after I purchased and assembled frames. Do I need to fill slot on top where foundation was to go? If I need to fill is it safe to use bondo or do I cut wood strips and glue. Thank you for your response when the chuckling stops.

[Riggs]

I went foundationless last year (my first year) I glued craft sticks in the slot for a starter strip and had no issues at all. Good luck.

[beyondthesidewalks]

I cut strips of wood on the tablesaw and glue them in.  After the glue is dry I coat them with wax so the bees get the idea and that works very well for me.  You can use popsicle sticks or free paint stirrers from your favorite big box.  They'll work too.  If you don't have wax the bees will still figure it out.  Better to use no wax than wax from someone else unless you're sure that no chemicals have been used on that wax.  Studies are showing that wax holds the miticides that beekeepers put in the hive and some believe that those chemicals lead to shorter queen life.

I used to put in strips of foundation but couldn't get them to stay, even glueing them in with wax.  In our heat they would just fall out.  Wood strips seem to be the best bet from my experience.  Good luck with it.

[jmblakeney]

If you have the frames with the break away wedge on the top bar, just flip the wedge and nail into place with nail gun.  Worked great for me last year and this year.  Very quick and easy too.

Hope this helps.

James

[Finski]

I am new so feel free to laugh. .

When you are new, it is better to start with fundations. So you see what it is.
Then move you system to strips if you feel so.
Foundationless gives no advantage.It is a nuisance, if I describe it.

Of curse bees can do themselves combs but they are expencive combs becaus to make a kilo wax needs 6 kg honey. That is amount how much foundations are needed to langstroth box.

Then you need 5 box foundations.  It means 30 kg honey per hive.

.
.
.

[FRAMEshift]

If I need to fill is it safe to use bondo or do I cut wood strips and glue.

Bondo is very nasty dangerous stuff.  As said, you can use large craft sticks in the slots.  All our frames are foundationless and we use Walter T. Kelley frames which have a wooden wedge at the top that works very well.

Generally, foundationless gives you a simple system that provides clean cut comb honey.  Yes, you can extract it but it's not worth it unless you want to do large scale commercial production.  For a few backyard hives, cut comb or crush and stain work fine.  And the bees are able to make the size and variety of cells that they want.

[marktrl]

One important thing to remember with foundation less is to make sure the hive is level side to side, otherwise the comb might get messy.

[Francus]

I started new last year and started foundationless. I highly recommend it. I used the "craft" sticks, which are basically tounge depressors and sold at Wal Mart or Target. I used elmers wood glue to affix them to the top groove.

I then used one sheet of foundation on one of the frames in the middle to get them started and left them alone. It all worked out fine. One hive made some wonky foundation and I just cut it out and then held it in place in the correct position with a rubberband. Once it got reattached I cut the rubber band.

I am very glad I went foundationless. That said, I never used foundation in all the frames so I can't speak to whether I would have liked it better. Supposedly the bees like making their own better anyway. And it is fun to watch them draw it out.

[podius]

I'd say for beginner, you should have foundation or plastic frames. There's nothing like opening a box and seeing comb going every way but the way you intended it to be. It happened to me when I first started. That really sets you back, but here's a tip so you don't freak out. You can break off the sideway comb and rubber band it back the way you want it.

[beyondthesidewalks]

"All our frames are foundationless and we use Walter T. Kelley frames which have a wooden wedge at the top that works very well."

I just bought and used some of the WTK frames this year.  So far the bees seem to be liking them just fine.  I coated the top bar with wax and they've taken to them nicely.  Have you had any issues with them?  They went together fine and the wood seemed a little on the soft side, no splitting like I have had with other manufacturers.

[Finski]

.
Bees draw combs when they need them. It is not "like" thing.
When they need not new combs, they save energy and store food for bad days.

If bees do not draw foundations, they have a reason for that. Neither they do "wild" combs then.

I have not seen a sigle foundation during 50 years which bees have not drawn. If not this summer, then next summer.

If combs are bad, bees bite the combs in pieces and draw new combs instead.

.

[Stone]

I agree with what others have said here about the mess the bees can make if they are only given foundationless.  If they are not given some frames with either drawn comb or with foundation, you've got trouble.  I learned this the hard way. Now I put in three frames with foundation (or drawn comb) in a new box - one in the middle and one on each end.  Seems to work fine.  Even with this, you can end up with some pretty imaginative architecture sometimes. Cut it, straighten it and rubber band it.

I hear what Finski is saying about the energy the bees have to expend to draw their own comb and it makes a great deal of sense. I don't extract though.  I crush and strain a little but my operation is geared mainly for cut comb and I run all mediums so it's more versatile. (I put drawn comb or frames with foundation in the brood boxes.) The honey in the frames with foundation are for the bees; drawn combs with honey are for me. Maybe in the future I'll decide to extract with some of my hives. Then I'll use foundation in honey supers.  But foundationless is what I need with what I'm doing. I also use Kelley's frames for this and they work fine. Good prices on them.

For those interested, the new frame Kelley has with slotted top bars are really fantastic. Good, solid frame. Easy and fast.

[FRAMEshift]

I just bought and used some of the WTK frames this year.  So far the bees seem to be liking them just fine.  I coated the top bar with wax and they've taken to them nicely.  Have you had any issues with them?  They went together fine and the wood seemed a little on the soft side, no splitting like I have had with other manufacturers.

I know that Kelley's website recommends putting wax on the top bar, but it is not necessary.  In fact, I think wax that you add just weakens the attachment to the top bar.  The bees can embed the wax in the wood better than you can, so I would let them do it. 

No, we haven't had any problems with Kelley foundationless frames.  I think the bees will usually draw straight comb on them even if you just dump a bunch of Kelley's into a box.  But we generally alternate new frames with drawn comb.  Doing it that way we have never had any serious burr comb.

[rail]

I started with foundationless frames my first hive, no problems at all!  :) I used Walter T. Kelley foundationless frames, with great results.

This year in the new hives I am using Miller Bee Supply wedge top and solid bottom bar frames for foundationless. Also ordered more W.T. Kelley frames.

[Rob Sandberg]

So I thank everyone for the replies. So many questions thoughts and ideas. Where I live it gets
hot in the summer,so if I decide to go foundation less do I wire?  I have a secret I do not like honey so extraction is not an issue.  I just want to put back. So thanks for info and replies yet to be sent.

[Michael Bush]

>Do I need to fill slot on top where foundation was to go?

You need a guide.  The guide is easily put in the slot.

>Of curse bees can do themselves combs but they are expencive combs becaus to make a kilo wax needs 6 kg honey. That is amount how much foundations are needed to langstroth box.

Bees build foundationless much faster than foundation and then they have somewhere to store the nectar sooner.  This whole math thing of x pounds of honey to y pounds of wax is not only not likely but irrelevant.

[FRAMEshift]

  This whole math thing of x pounds of honey to y pounds of wax is not only not likely but irrelevant.

Even if it's true that it takes x to make y,  the tacit assumption is that the foraging activity is not affected by comb building behavior.  But if the bees just need substrate and energy to make comb, they could, for example, forage more intensively and closer to the hive without regard to the type nectar they select.  That would make comb building easier than gathering the same amount of nectar from select, distant sources for its nutritional value.

There are so many feedback systems with bees and so much apparent intelligence that it's dangerous to make simplistic assumptions.

[Finski]

Ie. I don't extract though.  I crush and strain a little but my operation is geared mainly for cut comb and I run all mediums so it's more versatile.

if you start to extract the yield, you get 100% more honey from hives.

(Nothing is so expencive than poor's living.)

[FRAMEshift]

if you start to extract the yield, you get 100% more honey from hives.

That implies that half the honey is lost when you cut comb instead of extracting.  I don't think that's true.  And how many frames do you have to extract to pay for the extractor?  And how many frames do you have to extract to pay for the building that houses the extractor?  

Around here cut comb honey sells for much more than extracted honey,  mostly because people know they are getting honey from a real comb and not some manufactured filtered mixture of honey and corn syrup with other additives.

High efficiency may be crucial when you are running a business with competition.  But if the point of raising bees is to have some honey from your backyard to eat and share with friends, automating the extraction process to increase yield may not be the most important thing.

[Michael Bush]

>if you start to extract the yield, you get 100% more honey from hives.

Yes, because there is no time delay to get somewhere to store the nectar.  You will get significantly more yield with drawn comb over foundation or foundationless, yes.  This is not because of x pounds of honey to make y pounds of wax.   You will get more yield with foundationless, though, than with foundation because they will draw it faster than foundation and you will have somewhere to store the nectar sooner than with foundation.  But of course, not as soon as with drawn comb.