No brood after swarm: combine or kill?

[HeatherM]

In June we got two healthy hives.  Each was only one box when we got them; 2 weeks later we added another box to each hive. 

Hive 1 is very healthy, has two brood boxes and an additional box for honey.  We just extracted about 40lbs honey from the hive.

Hive 2 swarmed in July and has two boxes (unfortunately the swarm happened right around the time we added the new box.  We were only one day late but didn't know enough about beekeeping yet to be on top of things).  We have not seen any signs of brood despite numerous queen cells that have holes in their bottoms.  Last time we took a peek (one week ago) I saw signs of laying workers (double eggs in some comb cells).  We placed two brood frames from the Hive 1 into Hive 2 to help them along.  The top box is only about 1/4 to 1/3 drawn and has honey.  Overall these bees seem healthy.

Regarding Hive 2, should we:

A: combine it with the healthy hive before winter?  If so, what is the best way to combine the five boxes?  I assume we'll have to reduce the number of boxes. 

The two hives are right next to each other (probably less than one foot apart).  Is it possible that bees from Hive 2 will just move into Hive 1 on their own?

B: Actively kill the bees in Hive 2?

C.  Just let the bees in Hive 2 die?

Thanks!
PS: Sorry if this question has already been answered.  I'm new to the forum and didn't find anything directly similar in my searching.

[Kathyp]

double eggs in cells can also be from a new queen that hasn't quite figured things out.  you will know if you have laying workers if all the brood is drone and the cells are scattered.  ALL drone.

 when you have looked again, we can  help you decide what to do.  my guess is that you have a new queen.

[FRAMEshift]

Last time we took a peek (one week ago) I saw signs of laying workers (double eggs in some comb cells).  We placed two brood frames from the Hive 1 into Hive 2 to help them along. 

Check again to see if you have new single eggs in the brood cells.  If so, you have your new queen.  Also check for queen cells from the brood you added.

[Michael Bush]

Doubles mean nothing.  Laying workers will have dozens. 
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm#doubleeggs

When you hit five or so, you'll know it's laying workers.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

[caticind]

Rule of thumb is that it takes at least two weeks to go from a hatched queen cell to a laying queen.  For the queen to settle in and lay a good pattern of single eggs could be another two weeks.  If you are worried, continue to add the occasional frame of brood, but no need to even start worrying about a combine until you have gone four weeks with no sign of eggs.

[HeatherM]

Thanks for the advice.

We just checked the hive again this weekend.  I didn't see any more eggs, or a queen, but did see lots of what I think is drone brood.  Most of it is large and extending out from the top of the frame.  There are also a few bulging out, throughout the frame.  This makes me think that it was laying workers.  Should I wait longer to know for sure? 

We did take the sparsely-filled top box (1/3 drawn and little honey) and added it to our healthy hive that had 2 brood boxes and 1 honey box.  We mostly did this to add another honey box to the very-productive healthy hive, since honey is flowing and we'll be out of town and unable to check on them for 3 weeks.

Still just wondering if I should combine the two hives in a few weeks...it's starting to get pretty cool up here (lows in the 40s).

[Kathyp]

rather than combine, take the hive 50 ft or so away from the others and shake the bees out.  put that hive away somewhere so that they can't go back to it.  some people just shake the bees out in front of other hives.  that works also, but i found less chaos by doing it away from hives.  take a couple of lids or towels so that you can cover the hive as you work. otherwise some bees will try to reenter it.

[FRAMEshift]

Hive 2 swarmed in July

If the hive swarmed in mid to late July, you still have time.  It normally takes about a month from swarm to the first eggs from a new queen.  And even those may be doubles and in a poor pattern.  I'd continue adding eggs from another hive for at least two more weeks.  My only reservation is that I don't know the climate where you are.  Are there still drones flying?  Do you have drones in your healthy hive?

If you decide that you do have laying workers, (many eggs per cell), then my first choice would be to continue adding eggs.  Second choice would be a combine.  Last choice would be a shakeout.

[Kathyp]

canada....a little late to try to raise a queen and get winter bees. + if she has laying workers, introducing a new queen would be a crap shoot. 

did it look like this?

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=laying+worker+brood&hl=en&safe=off&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=ujogn5onTTNMsM:&imgrefurl=http://beeinformed.org/2011/05/laying-worker-2/&docid=tFtclbYmSukVAM&w=2272&h=1704&ei=h8pbTq_nMaLSiAKisNieCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=183&vpy=374&dur=724&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=156&ty=112&page=1&tbnh=127&tbnw=188&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:0&biw=1227&bih=698

[HeatherM]

It did look like the photo, except there were fewer of them.  There were also quite a few made in burr comb near the top of the frame.  Many of these at the top were not capped and I could see huge larvae inside.  I didn't see any more eggs, but could have missed them.

The hive swarmed on July 1st, so it has been over 8 weeks.

[FRAMEshift]

The hive swarmed on July 1st, so it has been over 8 weeks.

Oh, in that case it has been too long for a new queen to start laying.  If you are seeing only scattered drone brood and no worker brood, it does not look good.  Kathy is right about it being too late to raise a new queen from scratch in Canada.  If you have the eggs to spare, it still would not hurt to continue adding a frame of eggs per week.  Even if you can't raise a new queen, it will suppress the laying workers and make a combine easier.  I don't see any advantage to a shakeout over a combine, especially if you have already suppressed the laying workers.  When you see queen cells appear, that would be the signal to do a combine.

[Kathyp]

the advantage to me would be to be done with it, and not disrupt the hive that is probably laying winter bees right now, and doing it's last storing for winter.  shaking them out would boost the other hive immediately and not disrupt it.  + you are going to be wanting to reduce your hive to it's overwinter size pretty quick.

either way will probably work.  i just like KISS as i tend to the lazy side a bit  :-D

[FRAMEshift]

either way will probably work.  i just like KISS as i tend to the lazy side a bit  :-D

That's funny kathy.  I am also lazy.  I just thought a combine was less work.   :-D   I see we think alike.