Mite Counts & Questions

[Pond Creek Farm]

I put a grid board beneath the SBB on my three hives.  The results were remarkable after 24 hours.  My strongest hive had 4, my next to strongest  had 25.  My weakest hive which the result of a combine two weeks ago of two very weak hives had a mit drop of 50 in 24 hours.  I clearly have serious issues in the combined hive, but the middle hive also seems severly affected.  What do I do in such a situation?  I am committed to not using chemicals.  Is this a situation where I should not waste time trying to feed out the combined hive due to the high mite counts? 

[mswartfager]

Sorry, I'm not replying to help answer your question, but I also have a similar senerio/question.  Any help from someone with experience is really appreciated. 

[Michael Bush]

You have to decide what you philosophy of beekeeping is and proceed accordingly.  If you are willing to use harsh acids, then formic or oxalic will knock down a lot of mites.  If you vaporize you can do oxalic four times a week apart.  If you trickle you can only do it once and that will not kill the mites in capped cells.

Powdered sugar is less harsh and also should be done every week for four weeks or so.  Just dust them good.

In the end, though, treating for mites only breeds bees that can't tolerate mites.  So even if you do treat, I'd requeen the one that is in the most trouble as it is clearly not able to do so.

[Pond Creek Farm]

Thank you Mr. Bush.  I always appreciate your views.  In response to your post, I am not willing to use harsh chemicals, so the acids are out for me. I am not opposed to powdered sugar, but this is only because it seems a natural alternative.  Perhaps this is faulty thinking, however, and I am certainly not steadfast in my convictions on this point.  I really do not have a philosophy on beekeeping other than wanting the bees to flourish and wishing to refrain from chemistry to aid in that pursuit. Quite frankly, I am far too new to this too have any credible philosophy, and any tendency I might have is likely the product of ignorance and prejudice.  I am, however, a willing student.

Is treating at all for mites something that simply creates weak and susceptible bees?  Is re queening a possible answer and if so from where?  I am trying to use smaller cells and natural comb since the concept feels right to me.  The evidence from many sources, although relegated as anecdotal by many, appears credible and compelling.  Certainly more of the same is not the answer or my hives would not be faltering as they are.

I am not trying to start a war of ideology, but I do seek to understand.  No one can make a choice unless the opposing positions are understood. Nevertheless, in the shortrun, I need to know where to get a queen in October to save a two deep combined hive with a mite count as high as 50 in 24 hours. I really would like to save this hive. 

[annette]

You can do the powdered sugar dusting and it will work for you if you do this every week for 4 weeks time. You might have to dust every super separately to really get at them. I have done this when my hives had even more than yours and it worked.

Can't answer the queen questions as do not know about requeening in the fall. I hope I never have to do it.

[tandemrx]

No expert here, and certainly a beginning beekeeper, but I am not convinced that your mite counts are so high that you need to panic.

The Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and Extension Consortium (MAAREC) booklet on beekeeping lists a threshold for treating mites of 50 mites/day.  My "First Lessons in Beekeeping" book by Keith Delaplane lists a late season mite threshold for pesticide treatment in the Southeastern states of 60-190 mites/day.

Given that mite counts are higher later in the season, the numbers you are seeing might not even warrant treatment - you are at worse scenario only approaching what are considered "threshold" levels for treatment.

First question might be (mite bee?) how are your colonies doing?  Are there other factors that might be involved if they are weak?  It might not all be the mites - especially since your numbers don't seem all that high (to me).

There is at least one non-chemical method you can use.  YOu could consider drone brood removal method - cultivating drone brood frames and culling them - since that is where the majority of mites will hang out.  Not probably something you can do this late in the season, but something you could consider in the spring.  May not be a fully proven method, but can be part of a mite management process/plan.

You might also consider apiguard as a "less toxic", less "chemical" option . . . in theory it is simply essential thymol oil, or the oil of the Thyme plant.  As a pharmacist, I am not one to consider "natural" treatments like this as non-toxic . . . ask Socrates what he thinks of natural medicine  :-D, but many would consider apiguard as a more "natural" option.

Formic acid, as mentioned, is not exactly a pesticide.  Harsh to the nose and skin yes, but I think the likelihood of you having mite free hives with no treatment or management process of some sort is exceptionally low.

I am a bit less convinced than others about the powdered sugar method of treating mites.  It doesn't treat mites that are on brood where about 70% of the mites hang out.  I also am not finding a lot of direct research that supports its success unless you isolate the treated bees from brood (treat isolateded bees and put into a different empty hive).  The sugar shake method seems like an effective way to count mites, but it warrants mention that treatment using this method is less proven.

Just some things to ponder FWIW

[annette]

I agree that the mite count is not that high and that is why doing something simple like a powdered sugar dusting would work. But still I have been told that you should try to get the numbers down more, at least on that hive with the 50 drop. 

The powdered sugar dusting have worked for me, but you have to do this every week for several weeks and that is how you get the mites inside with the brood.   

Sincerely
Annette

[rast]

"The powdered sugar dusting have worked for me, but you have to do this every week for several weeks and that is how you get the mites inside with the brood."

 As Annette said, it does work, BUT, you have to do it every week to catch the emerging brood. My state inspector recomends it 4 days apart, 6 times. Knowing that I will never eradicate mites, I do the once a week for a month. Being lazy, time constraints, weather and any other feeble excuse I can think of. I had 2 hives a distance away that I did not treat and now one is gone and the other is on life support from a wax moth invasion. They were on commercial pallet bottom boards with fire ants underneath and I did not want to draw them into the hive after the sugar. (see, I thought up another excuse :()     

[Michael Bush]

>Is treating at all for mites something that simply creates weak and susceptible bees?

It does not create them, but it perpetuates them by allowing them to continue to reproduce.

>  Is re queening a possible answer and if so from where?

Someone who raising resistant queens would be nice.  There are actually quite a few small breeders who don't treat.  Michael Palmer, Bjorn Apiaries, Anarchy Apiaries, Dann Purvis, myself and others.

> I am trying to use smaller cells and natural comb since the concept feels right to me.  The evidence from many sources, although relegated as anecdotal by many, appears credible and compelling.

There are certainly more people succeeding at it than experiments to the contrary.  :)

>I am not trying to start a war of ideology, but I do seek to understand.

Nor was I.  Just pointing out how your ideology affects your decisions.

>  No one can make a choice unless the opposing positions are understood. Nevertheless, in the shortrun, I need to know where to get a queen in October to save a two deep combined hive with a mite count as high as 50 in 24 hours. I really would like to save this hive.

A new queen now won't change anything now.  In the spring, yes.  But the damage is already done for the fall bees and a new queen won't be able to replace those damaged bees.

On the other hand they might survive anyway.  The only one that really concerns me is the 50.

[Pond Creek Farm]

My leanings are in line with those espoused by Michael Bush in that I really do not want to treat for varoa but rather would like to escape the need to do so.  This may be a pipe dream, but to a hobbyist like me, pipedreams are fun diversions.  So how is this for a plan?  Treat as Annette and others have recommended this fall and re-queen the affected hives in the spring with stock from breeders who do not treat.  That might keep the hive alive long enough to allow the new queen to come in and start laying.  IN very short order next spring, she will replace all the stock from the affected bees.  Would this not serve both purposes?  I question, however, if the more heavily affected bees will create a problem for the new queen's offspring.  Is the idea of untreated queen stock along the lines of selecting hygienic behavior?

[Michael Bush]

You only have one hive that is on the ecomonic threshold of a problem.  50 mites in twenty four hours is unlikely to kill the hive, but it is at the point where the hive would be more healthy and productive if you knocked the numbers down.  I would only treat that one.