Can these bees' lives be saved?

[Inquisitive]

Hello Everyone,

A small swarm...about the size of two fists, has moved into a opening in the porch soffit.  A kind, local beekeeper referred by the county extension service told us that they probably wouldn't survive the winter because it is so late in the season.  (Therefore, we didn't need to exterminate them.)  I wasn't here when he visited, so I didn't get to ask him about options, so, having a garden and having heard that bees are declining, I was hoping for a more positive outcome!

Is it possible in your experience to entice bees to move out of the home THEY have unwisely chosen? 

If that could be accomplished, what can they live in, and could I feed them honey?

Thanks for any help you can offer.

[asprince]

It depends......if you live in Florida, maybe; if you live in North Dakota, probaly not. How long have they been there? How do you know their size? Can you see the entire hive?

Steve 

[Understudy]

You will not move the bees out without doing a cut out.
If the bees get to comb building. They might just survive.
the stress of a cut out probably will not be conducive to their survival if you get a winter.
If you don't get a winter cut them out and feed them. Otherwise leave them there and remove in spring.
It will be more work but it will be a healthy hive. 


Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Scadsobees]

Fill out your profile with your location...that makes lots of difference.

At this point in the season it is a lot of work with very little pay off.  They can't be "enticed" out, but most likely will need to be cut open and forcibly removed.  If you don't want their stuff in your house, now is the time to get rid of them, because likely by next summer their hive will be 4x the size it is now.  Bees are nice, and so are dogs, but just as a dog biting my leg is a nuisance, so are bees in my house.

The experience is fun, though.  In my climate the bees in walls get a little extra heat from the house and seem to be able to survive a little better.  If they are taken out now, they are doomed.  If they make it till spring...better chances.

If you are interested in beekeeping, I'd encourage you to contact that beekeeper and start planning for next spring.  It is a fascinating hobby!  That way if you get more bees in your house, perhaps you can take care of them next time...

Rick

[Understudy]

Meanwhile JP and I are doing cutouts all the time and saving the bees because the only thing frozen down here are the margaritas. :)

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[dpence]

Brendhan and JP,
You guys are lucky, I have found a couple of hives in various situations, but am waiting for spring here.  Just too risky with Missouri, you never know when it might snow, freeze or get really nasty.   :-D  As far as the small swarm goes, I would leave them be until spring.  IMHO.

David

[Inquisitive]

Thanks so much for your responses!
 
I apologize for not mentioning the location.  We are in Zone 7, southern New Mexico.  It probably won't freeze here for another 45- 60 days.

About 2 weeks ago I saw the swarm on the wall and it was amazing to see, then when I went back outside, the seething lump was gone.  I wish I had known what action to take when they were on the wall, but now there's plenty of buzzing and hovering and comings and goings from the opening inadvertently left in the soffit.

Since they have taken up residence in an uninsulated glass porch's roof, the only heat in the walls they would benefit from would be from the sun until noon. 

I cannot see any part of the comb, ...only the entrance they found is in plain view so 'cutting them out' isn't practical....they could be anywhere in an 8 foot span.  (Even if I could locate them, I can't see the men in my family allowing me to cut/patch the area, either!  :-\) 

Its too bad they can't be coaxed to move...I hate thinking that they might be at the end of the line.

[Understudy]

Thanks so much for your responses!
 
I apologize for not mentioning the location.  We are in Zone 7, southern New Mexico.  It probably won't freeze here for another 45- 60 days.

Cutting it a bit close.

About 2 weeks ago I saw the swarm on the wall and it was amazing to see, then when I went back outside, the seething lump was gone.  I wish I had known what action to take when they were on the wall, but now there's plenty of buzzing and hovering and comings and goings from the opening inadvertently left in the soffit.

Since they have taken up residence in an uninsulated glass porch's roof, the only heat in the walls they would benefit from would be from the sun until noon. 

I cannot see any part of the comb, ...only the entrance they found is in plain view so 'cutting them out' isn't practical....they could be anywhere in an 8 foot span.  (Even if I could locate them, I can't see the men in my family allowing me to cut/patch the area, either!  :-\) 

Its too bad they can't be coaxed to move...I hate thinking that they might be at the end of the line.

The only way to do this is a cut out. You should leave them there till spring. You might be surprised as to how well they do.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[bmacior]

Southern New Mexico.  Isn't that Africanized bee  :evil: territory? 

[Understudy]

Southern New Mexico.  Isn't that Africanized bee  :evil: territory? 

So is SoFla. There is more media hype to AHB than actual threat.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Inquisitive]

I've heard conflicting stories about Africanized Bees and so I'm glad you brought it up.  It made me go to Wikipedia... which explained a lot about why they're scary and why locals want them anyway.  It caused concern because it is near a doorway that my grandma uses, but the article said that DNA was the only way to test if they were AHB.

African flora and fauna find the Land of Enchantment enchanting indeed.  We are overrun with African Rue, a noxious invasive weed, and the fearless oryx, a 450 lb antelope with no natural enemies in our desert.

So, IF, in the Spring, I was able to perform a "cut out", theoretically, what would need to happen next?

Thanks again to all for your kindness and encouragement!

[bmacior]

Not to cause undo concern, but most of those killed by AHB are the elderly.  Having unidentified bees move into a hole in the the soffit by the door used by an elderly person makes me very nervous.  Here is another link to read about AHB.  http://www.westmtnapiary.com/africanized_bees.html

[Inquisitive]

That was fascinating reading, thanks for bringing it to my attention.  "Our" bees have not yet shown any aggressiveness, but the warning on that web page was clear.  The author had a very negative view of AHB.  Somehow after reading how they have colonized all of South and Central America, I wonder if their desire to eradicate the Africanized bees could ever be carried out.

[Understudy]

If the bees are aggressive it's simple, requeen them. That rule applies whether they are AHB or not.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Michael Bush]

I would point out that a new swarm of Africanized bee is often quite friendly until it gets established.  And, as pointed out, it would make me nervous that it's at an elderly persons house and right by their door.  The best defense against a bee attack is to run far away from the colony which is not always practical for an older person and even if they did, how would they get in the house after that?  If it were where people didn't walk by all the time, they might be more likely to not be a problem.  If it was me, I'd get them out.  The problem with getting a beekeeper to do this at this time of year is that there are not enough bees and not enough season left to build up for the winter.  I hate to exterminate bees, but this is probably the worst possible scenario for leaving them.  Assuming they aren't aggressive bees and they don't turn into aggressive bees, as stated, it's unlikely they will make it through the winter, although, not impossible, given your short and not so cold winters.

[JP]

Unfortunately, the best time to have dealt with them was when they were clustered on the wall before the queen moved into the void space, but what's done is done, at least you had the chance to witness it.

I suggest at the very minimum, getting samples for Africanized or European validation. A light can be put on at night which would attract them to attain samples, involve someone with honeybee knowledge to help with collecting samples, then send them in.

Call cooperative extension for help finding where to send them to, others on this site may have an address as well, anyone?

If the swarm may not make it anyway why not remove them now and transfer them to a nuc or medium and feed them, this is what I would do, especially with a colony so young and by the front door of an elderly person, regardless of them being AHB or European.


...JP

[bmacior]

The problem with getting a beekeeper to do this at this time of year is that there are not enough bees and not enough season left to build up for the winter.

If we are to be responsible beekeepers, we can not only retreive a swarm when it has monetary gain to us.  If ever there was a time for a beekeeper to step up and do the right thing for public safety and the beekeeping industry this sounds like it,with a swarm of unknown lineage taking up residence by the door of an elderly person.

[Inquisitive]

This is getting more and more critical.  My family now thinks that sealing the opening very early in the morning will trap them in there, where they would remain forever.  It sounds atrocious, but I must remind myself that is certainly not worth risking Grandma.

So, JP, what could or should a novice like me do the next time she should spot a swarm of bees near the house? 

Any idea of what it might cost for this test for validating which type of bee I have?  And if they were European bees would it make that much of a difference in their worth?

It was a surprise to me, that the beekeeper didn't think the bees were valuable enough to want them...but I am understanding more and more his reasons...the expense of housing & feeding them and then also the unavoidable structural damage to the porch removing them would have  caused.

[JP]

This is getting more and more critical.  My family now thinks that sealing the opening very early in the morning will trap them in there, where they would remain forever.  It sounds atrocious, but I must remind myself that is certainly not worth risking Grandma.

So, JP, what could or should a novice like me do the next time she should spot a swarm of bees near the house? 

Any idea of what it might cost for this test for validating which type of bee I have?  And if they were European bees would it make that much of a difference in their worth?

It was a surprise to me, that the beekeeper didn't think the bees were valuable enough to want them...but I am understanding more and more his reasons...the expense of housing & feeding them and then also the unavoidable structural damage to the porch removing them would have  caused.

Inquisitive, sealing the opening MAY kill the colony, but many times the case they find another opening to access or they find their way into the structure. I do not EVER under any circumstance recommend sealing entrances.

If you don't remove the colony and its remnants the area will be a magnate for other swarms. The void space needs to be accessed or a trap out from someone experienced and successful with trap outs can trap them out, but then again, even with a trap out you still leave combs that are attractive to swarms.

Removing a swarm before the queen moves into the void space is a matter of timing, one has to act quickly. Since you have never dealt with a swarm I would suggest you do some research and also find a mentor that would be willing to bring you on a swarm call and show you the ropes for next season.

bmacior, removing this colony now is the responsible thing to do. There is a chance they could be AHB, even if its a slight chance its a chance and according to Inquisitive, the colony is very near the front door. The people or person is elderly, another good reason to act quickly.

Because the colony has been there for a short time it would have a better chance of surviving under the care of a beekeeper.

The decision has nothing to do with monetary gain, its about putting people first, which I choose to do.


...JP

[bmacior]

At this point in the season it is a lot of work with very little pay off.

It was a surprise to me, that the beekeeper didn't think the bees were valuable enough to want them

The decision has nothing to do with monetary gain, its about putting people first, which I choose to do.

I agree its about putting people first.  Apparently the beekeeper who came to look, didn't feel it was worth his time (monetry gain) to the right thing.  All I'm saying is with the AHB increasing its range in the US, we as beekeepers may be called upon to remove a swarm that has set up housekeeping in a place that is not good for people or the bees; even if that swarm that will not increase (monetary gain) the size of our personal bee populations.

A lot of the members here, including myself, are backyard beekeepers.  John Q Public is afraid of bees.   Attacks on people could result in us not being to have our bees in town.   Yes, they are working on breeding calmer AHBs in South America and Mexico.  But those aren't the ones that have made it to the US.  Yes, the AHB will get bred calmer the longer it is here, but it isn't going to happen in a year or two. 

Bottom line, we don't know if the bees in question are AFB.  We also don't know that they are not.  Inqusitive wanted to know what to do with the bees.  I agree with MB, considering the location of the swarm 

If it was me, I'd get them out.