Finsky and MB and all the rest of the veterans.. come here a second...lol

[Mklangelo]

I have three hives consisting of two deeps have been using 6 5/8" supers.  The foundation I'm using is this:   Plasticell foundation

Now I want to double to 6 colonies next year using one split and two new packages.  I've heard about Permacomb, and various types of wax foundation either wired or not.  I'm interested in the foundation that will provide the bees the best chance of rapid growth and the best honey yield.

If I'm about to switch, I think next spring is the time. Better sooner than later and I do understand that the Plasticell is best for a rookie.  I think I may be ready for the next step up.

What is the foundation I should switch to?  Finsky,  MB. Please bring your debate here for a beekeeper entering his first winter and planning his second spring!!

Keep in mind I'm not familiar with the terminology of the various types of foundation.   :-D

[Cindi]

Mklangelo.  Are you sure you want to bring a debate to your topic, hee hee,  :) :) ;)

I am awaiting responses that you will get, I love to hear differing opinions too!!!  I can be quite an instigator as well.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, great health and life.  Cindi

[Understudy]

The best foundation is no foundation. The problem then the bees build according to the way they want  and not the way you want. 

The thing is that foundations that may work for Finsky may not work well for Michael and neither will work for me.

Finsky has a long winter and needs to make sure his bees deal well with that.
Michael has a relatively normal winter and needs to make sure his bees deal with that.
I have no winter and need to make sure my bees deal with that.

Michael tends to be very methodical almost scientific in his approach to things and tries many different methods and then uses what works best for him.
Finsky follows a tried and true method derived from many years of beekeeping.
I steal the best ideas from both of them and then customize them to my needs.

There are people here who follow neither of their ideas and use their own.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[KONASDAD]

You first need to decide what kind of beek you want to be. If your goal is honey production, you do things one way. (Finsky) If your goal is to someday be entirely free of chemicals of anykind, MB is your guy. They run their apiaries for diff goals and purposes. As a result they have diff methods(in addition to evreything undrestudy points out). My personal goal the first year was to get my hives through winter. This year was to get some saleable honey to offset next years expected expansion to ease the finacial outlay. So far, so good. My thinking is to now move towards non-synthetic chemicals, w/ the hope of being chemical free someday-and not lose honey production. So for now, no foundationless frames for me. I am still building and getting to know how and why I do certain things. Instead of experimenting w/ small cell, new frames and the like, I am investing in survivor queens which I hope will accomplish many of the things small cell touts, w/o losing honey prodiution and minimizing the need for any harsh chemicals. SOOOO, decide what your goal is and that will dictate your decisions.

[Mklangelo]

This thread is off to a great start!  I guess I want to maximize the byproduct of bees, which is Honey!  I would like to temper that with efficiency if you know what I mean.  I don't want to fuss to much but some is ok.  Since this is my first year, I'm all about getting them through the winter.  I just wrapped my hives with some R-27 insulation and plan to insulate the covers next week with the same stuff.  I think they're in good shape since the State Apiarist gave me an excellent report in early Sept.

[Kathyp]

i don't have years of experience, but i share what i have found over the last couple of years.

i started with wax just because that's what i was told to do.  i have found it to be inexpensive and very versatile.  i can cut it in strips, cut pieces out, and if any is damaged, the bees fix it.  also, if i am going to put new foundation in every few years, wax is cost effective.  for honey it's also nice.  you can use thick or thin or strips.  you can use wired for extraction, or thin for cut comb....or none/stater strips.  this year i poked holes in mine to secure queen cages, and cut out some moldy bit without having to replace the whole foundation.

guess i'd think about how i want to manage my hives and production over the next 5 years and see what you think will work best, and cost least.

[Mklangelo]

i don't have years of experience, but i share what i have found over the last couple of years.

i started with wax just because that's what i was told to do.  i have found it to be inexpensive and very versatile.  i can cut it in strips, cut pieces out, and if any is damaged, the bees fix it.  also, if i am going to put new foundation in every few years, wax is cost effective.  for honey it's also nice.  you can use think or thin or strips.  you can use wired for extraction, or thin for cut comb....or none/stater strips.  this year i poked holes in mine to secure queen cages, and cut out some moldy bit without having to replace the whole foundation.

guess i'd think about how i want to manage my hives and production over the next 5 years and see what you think will work best, and cost least.

Maybe the wired wax foundation is what I'm leaning toward.  A bit more fussing but pretty darn close to what they would make in the wild.

[Scadsobees]

I think that wax foundation is arguably the best for a rookie.  Plastic ell would be a step up from that since there are occasionally acceptance issues.

There are a lot of factors when considering.

1. Cost - foundationless is cheapest, fully-drawn the most expensive.  I'm cheap, and foundationless works good for that, no initial cost, comb is still re-usable.

2. Ease of use -  Can't beat popping a fully drawn frame in, no putting frames togather, no installing foundation.  Plastic foundation pops right in. Wired foundation is somewhat more tricky, and open frames foundationless or with starters can be troublesome or easy depending on how you do it.

3. Buildup - Here is where it can get contentious.  The bees don't accept plastic as well initially, when it has been used once, that isn't a problem as much any more.  In theory, foundation will give them more resources initially, but after they draw the comb out...who cares??? You can reuse it.  Supposedly the foundationless they draw the fastest, but I think most of the evidence of that is anecdotal. My opinion is is either way will work good.

4. Reusability - You can reuse artificial comb/foundation indefinately, scrape and reuse.  Once the bugs get into wax foundation...its over.  Clean up the frame, tear it apart, and re-assemble.

5. ???

Go with what works for you.  Everybody is different and likes different stuff.  Perhaps buy a few boxes of each, and see what you prefer. (Don't mix wax and plastic foundation in a hive, the bees will draw the wax first.  Once its drawn then you can)

I have some of all of the different kinds except the fully drawn stuff(so I'm cheap!! :-D). 

I like the plasticell the best, and it isn't any more expensive. 

Wired wax and duragilt is fine but not reusable. 

Foundationless is cheapest, so I go with that for a lot...I don't like it as much because I end up with lots of drone comb, but that is a management learning technique. 

I'm not concerned with squeezing every last drop of honey out of the bees(its a hobby for me), so if they need a little extra to draw the comb, thats fine, I'll use that comb next year. 

Rick

[Jerrymac]

Maybe the wired wax foundation is what I'm leaning toward.  A bit more fussing but pretty darn close to what they would make in the wild.

Bees wire the wax in the wild  :?

[Mklangelo]

Maybe the wired wax foundation is what I'm leaning toward.  A bit more fussing but pretty darn close to what they would make in the wild.

Bees wire the wax in the wild  :?

I did say "pretty darn close"  lol   Apart from the wires of course...it's just wax

[Brian D. Bray]

I've gone to using foundationless exclusively. Every box is the same size: medium 8 frame.

The bees build the type of comb they need at the moment. 
If I want small cell I have to insert the frame into the middle af a brood chamber. 
I can put any frame anywhere in any hive at anytime--this makes developing splits much easier. 
If the bees make the comb wrong I can cut it out and have them remake it and keep doing it until they do it right.
Excess wax does not have to be de-wired or melted off plastic.
The wax can be recycled into soaps, candles, balms, and other cosmetics.
What I don't use I give to my relatives--Since I live on the place my parents left in trust all my family members are entitled to some of the fruits the property produces.

[TwT]

I use wired foundation on brood and honey frames, the only time I might use unwired foundation or a starter strip is for comb honey only... other than that wired foundation for me...

[Michael Bush]

The fastest (for the bees) is to buy PermaComb, heat it to 200F in an oven, dip it in 200-212F beeswax, shake off the excess and give them to them.  It's fully drawn comb and is instantly accepted as fully drawn comb.

Next would be the unwaxed PermaComb, but it's best to rub the outside with some wax and spray some syrup on it for acceptance.  Honey Bee Healthy in the syrup seems to help with covering the smell of the plastic.

I've had excellent acceptance of Mann Lake's PF120s, but they still  have to draw it.

And, yes they will draw foundationless more quickly than the PF120's.

But they don't have to draw the PermaComb at all.

[Finsky]

I have three hives consisting of two deeps have been using 6 5/8" supers.

Now I want to double to 6 colonies next year using one split and two new packages.

  I'm interested in the foundation that will provide the bees the best chance of rapid growth and the best honey yield.

Sorry, I found this text only now...

Your goal is to double hive number and get a  good yields from each hives -

It is same what foundations you use. Plastic, wires etc, they are for beekeepers' comfort and for honey extracting of handling hives. They have nothing to do with build upp of colony.

You get a good yield when you raise a big colony and put it on good pastures. - and prevent swarming.

1)  bye so much package bees that you colony occupie one box. It ineeds 4 lbs bees. - these colonies are able to get normal yield after 2 month.

If you have a change prefer nucs with brood. They grom faster than packages.

2) Take good care of your old hives and give emerging bee frames to samller colonies.

When you have a colony which have one box  full of bees and full of brood, that is able to forage surplus after 5 weeks.

They draw combs when they need them for brood or for honey.

.

[Hopeful]

Mklangelo,

I am in  about the same position you are. At this point, I am planning on going with Mann Lake PF120s next spring in my new hives. Here are the reasons.

1- Lower maintenance. My hives will be 70 miles away from home, and I work a full time job.
2- Less initial work in preparation- I am building a bunch of new woodenware and a honey house this winter and am not sure I will even get it done by spring. Forget putting together 1000 frames!
3- Lower cost for what you get. I can maybe beat the cost of Mann Lake with "build it yourself" wood and wax, but do not have the time. For less than $1 per frame for mediums I get a complete, ready to use, frame and foundation. I just need to spray it with syrup when putting it in the box. No biggie.
4- Mann Lake is affordable on the other things I need and it would be nice not to have to work with half a dozen vendors. It is easier to establish a good relationship with one or two. In this case Mann Lake and one other, like Walter Kelley, Lapps or Brushy Mountain. Iam leaningtoward Brushy Mountain. Mountains and Lakes seem to go together.(Just kidding ;) )
5- MB endorses them and Finsky doesn't care. Sounds like as close to a consensus as you will get from those two!  :-D

[Finsky]

Mklangelo,


1- Lower maintenance. My hives will be 70 miles away from home, and I work a full time job.

I have 100 miles and full time job.  I have 15 hives, and it is good for me. It takes one day per week to nurse.  I have now almost 25 but I return my 15 number.  Yeah - it is not interesting enough after these years.

[annette]

I've gone to using foundationless exclusively. Every box is the same size: medium 8 frame.

The bees build the type of comb they need at the moment. 
If I want small cell I have to insert the frame into the middle af a brood chamber. 
I can put any frame anywhere in any hive at anytime--this makes developing splits much easier. 
If the bees make the comb wrong I can cut it out and have them remake it and keep doing it until they do it right.
Excess wax does not have to be de-wired or melted off plastic.
The wax can be recycled into soaps, candles, balms, and other cosmetics.
What I don't use I give to my relatives--Since I live on the place my parents left in trust all my family members are entitled to some of the fruits the property produces.

Brian

Just curious - do you do just crush and strain???  I like your thinking and the way you do your beekeeping and want to do the same. But my dilema is I do want to use my extractor to preserve the comb and perhaps get more honey. So I am thinking of just continuing with the sturdier frames (plastic) in the honey supers. I have placed some frames of just starter strips into the honey supers and they drew it out so nice and filled it with honey. With these frames, I will do just crush and strain.

Annette

[Finsky]

 I will do just crush and strain.

When everyone here is open to strange ideas, here is one alternative to crushing:mass production of comb honey

[Michael Bush]

Comb honey is worth more, and in my opinion, is tastier than extracted or strained.

[Finsky]

Comb honey is worth more, and in my opinion, is tastier than extracted or strained.

Yes. I think that it is a cool product.   :-P I have not seen it or used it.