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Author Topic: My experiences in insulating and heat economy of hives  (Read 4326 times)

Offline Finsky

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My experiences in insulating and heat economy of hives
« on: November 12, 2007, 06:13:18 am »
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It is difficult to discuss here because all kind of beeholding styles are soon in one intangible mesh.


I tell what I have learned during 45 years.

My menthor had worked in Canada and he have studied  beekeeping systems of USA and Canada. He got for excample breeding queens from Canada. I omitted from him the best methods what were in use in Finland in those days.

First I made very good traditional, "long hive" insulated hives.   It took in 20 frames in same level.
My menthor said that hive type is out of date and I burned then after 2 years usage. It was year 1963 when I started at the age of 15.

I made langstroth hives according USA blue prints. They were 30 mm thick solid wood.

Years went and I add 10 mm water broof insulation board over wintering boxes and need of winter food dropped 30%. No more dead hives for lack of food.

But that insulation board kept moisture inside hive construction and boxes start to rotten veary fast. I had to make something  to save my boxes for 20 hives.

I tried polyplast hives first in the year 1987.  When I looked next summer, I found that all polyplast hives were bigger that my insulation board hives. They brought so much honey that they paid those expencive boxes in one summer. Boxes had made in Danmark (Nacca) and they were really expencive 20 years ago. But boxes were good quality and they are still in fine condition.

Hive material forced to formulate bottom boards in another way because all condensation water went down to bottom. In wooden hives it soaked into wood.

When I migrated my hives, light stryfoam hives were exelent to handle. It saved my back. I use my old wooden box as honey boxes.

When we use polyhives, we need not any other insulations or tar papers. I have used tar paper onec in the year 1965 may be? But I use winter covers in front of hive for snow and wind and birds.

I wintered my hives under snow 20 years but when our snow cover become thinner, I had not snow to cover hives. I noticed that bees in better condition without snow which added too much moisture in hives.

I lost 60% of my hives 5 years ago. I took all my knowledge into use to rise upp my bee yard.

It was April and night temperatures were -8C and by day it was +2C. I wnet to petty shop and bought different kinds of terrarium heaters  to see, what happens.  Results were marvellous. I found that when I give pollen patty and heat hives in spring, tyhey build up were 3 times faster than with natural way.

One early June I took my 4 best hives to forest and others I kept in my yard with electrict heating.  When rape stared to bloom, I found that every sigle colony was passed the best hives with the aid of heating. Since then I have found how inportand is insulated hives and warm hive in spring build up.

If I want early summer yield, I need to start hives with pollen patty 2 months earlier. Only 2 box hives are able to develope into condition of surpluss foraging.  one box hives need 2 weeks extra to get foragiong bees enough.

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I have tried screened bottoms but results were awfull compared with my solid bottom boars. It do not work in windy sites and do not help in spring build up.

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WHAT IS COLD WEATHER AND RADIATION OF SUN

I live on the level of Alaska Anchorage. When we have cold, sun does not help hives. Sun is not shining when it is rain, Sun does nit shine at night.

When my hives need early build upp in April, nights may be -6C and days +5. In May days may be +15 and night -2C.
When it rains, days are +5C and nights +2C.

Perhaps hives absorb some heat from sun in these condition but walls are cold before sun has gone behind the forest.

Hive has +32C temperature and nights cold limits the brood area in May. I have noticed it when I too heating into use.

**************

THE END: It is very easy to get hive alive over winter, but to get fast spring build up needs warm, insulated hives.
We have normally one yield month, but when I fasten spring build up, I add my yield season to early June.

Sunny site is essential to vivil life of bees and sun does not hel at night and during cloudy days.

Tar papers do not hepl here hives. If it keep beekeper's mind calm, it is still worth of using.

********************
Specially omitted to  Brian: I have tried many things during my life, more than you Brian. Surely. I have  an nature of strong renewer. But if I feel that something is stupid, I do not try it to see how stupid it is. But still you are right. You have such an nature.

We have saying " The Finnish does not believe before he tries".  And it is true.  I trye at least 5 times if I do not succeed.

When I have made my experiments, a normal man gives up much sooner than I. I want to see to bottom.  It makes life interesting
I am wanderer of my own path Brian. No sayings make me give up if I want something and I notice that it is worth trying.

But I do not follw all fool thing what others tell me. That is not brain using".

But I have other life too. My bekeping has limited my wive's and 3 son's life too much. Actually  I have no time to ry "natural cells".

Good queen, big hives, good pastures, sell much honey - I have enough to do with that concept. 
  45 years beekeeping - it is not any more interesting. It is against my nature.  :roll:

   
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 07:11:48 pm by Finsky »

Offline ooptec

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Re: My experiences in insulating and heat economy of hives
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 12:44:21 pm »
Hey Finsky,

What a great post, esp. from someone of your experience at the same northern conditions as I have. It is hard for other people who live in more temperate climates to imagine the stresses and challenges from a climate that can range from 37°C (90°F) summertime to occasional dips to -40°C (°F) and prob. mean winter temps. of -20°C (-4°F)

I am planning homebuilt Lang hive of 1/4in plywood exterior skin and 1-1/2in styrofoam (polyplast??) lined interior all six sides. I have a horizontal hive already built that way and is in its first winter cycle. I have already noticed that in the fall the drones were ejected about 3 weeks later than the similar size but all 3/4in. wood hive that is insulated top, bottom which I assumed to be due to more constant and warmer temperature in the fully insulated hive.

When late fall arrived the 3/4in wood hive also had two of four sides insulated (the follower boards of styrofoam) and only the two long side not insulated.

Hive material forced to formulate bottom boards in another way because all condensation water went down to bottom. In wooden hives it soaked into wood.

What/how did you fashion the bottom boards to eliminate this problem?? and are your winters low humidity but you still had condensation issues??

It was April and night temperatures were -8C and by day it was +2C. I went to petty shop and bought different kinds of terrarium heaters  to see, what happens.  Results were marvellous. I found that when I give pollen patty and heat hives in spring, they build up were 3 times faster than with natural way.

Did you not use heat during winter but just during April??

What is the average winter temperature for you?

What temperature do you think the interior of hives were with the heater on??

What does a terrarium heater look like?? Is it like a aquarium heater that is in a glass tube or a mat??


One early June I took my 4 best hives to forest and others I kept in my yard with electrict heating.


Until what temperatures outside did you keep heat on??

Have you ever gone back and experimented with your horizontal hives??

Cheers

peter




Offline Finsky

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Re: My experiences in insulating and heat economy of hives
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 07:26:15 pm »
Hey , You are from Canada....


What/how did you fashion the bottom boards to eliminate this problem?? and are your winters low humidity but you still had condensation issues??

[/quote]Condensation happens always when warm moist air meets cold surface ( think windows of car)


Quote
Did you not use heat during winter but just during April??

I use in May and April. It is our spring. Snow melts in first week of April and dandelions and apple trees start blooming at the end of May.
In winter I have heated 2-frame nucs and they goes fine over winter all those 6 months.

Quote
What is the average winter temperature for you?

I do not know, but hardest frost are usually under 20C in my part of Finland.  During few days temp may drop to -30C.Temperature is quite same like in Anchorage Alaska.

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What temperature do you think the interior of hives were with the heater on??

Heating keeps corners and bottom warmer. It helps make brood are wider.  Queens like to go lay down near bottom board because it is warm. In two box hive queen enters lay down to first box.

Quote
What does a terrarium heater look like?? Is it like a aquarium heater that is in a glass tube or a mat??

It is a water broof cable, 4 meters long.


Quote
Until what temperatures outside did you keep heat on??

When outer temperature is 17C, bees need not extra heating.

Quote
Have you ever gone back and experimented with your horizontal hives??

Horizontal long hives were 40 years ago most popular in Finland. Langstroths were very few.  Now no one use those old style hives.

One beekeepers, who has 250 hives, told that he build horizontal (low style) langstroth hives but swarming of bees was enormous. He gived up the idea. 

Offline Moonshae

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Re: My experiences in insulating and heat economy of hives
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 09:13:04 pm »

It is a water broof cable, 4 meters long.


I've seen your pictures, Finsky, and thought that was just the power cord running into the hive. How do you run such a cable through your hives during such a cold part of the year without overchilling them? Do you need to pull frames to thread the wire through? Do you just run the wore through the corners? I'd like to heat my hives in your manner, seems like I'm about a month or more ahead of you, seasonally.

I've never seen such a heater, either, but I have not looked too hard for terrarium heaters. Finding one is the easy part; using it properly is where your help is invaluable.
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Offline Paraplegic Racehorse

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Re: My experiences in insulating and heat economy of hives
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 09:19:22 pm »
I am planning homebuilt Lang hive of 1/4in plywood exterior skin and 1-1/2in styrofoam (polyplast??) lined interior all six sides.

You might want to re-think that. Insulation is most effective on the outside of whatever it is being bonded to since it prevents, or reduces, the amount of heating/cooling to reach said surface. Also, the fumes from the styro will be on the inside of the hive, rather than being naturally vented to the surrounding environment as when on the outside. Further, the wood will provide a stronger resting surface for your frames than will the styro.

If were not so expensive, I would experiment with structural foam board - foam laminated on BOTH sides with a strong material and designed to handle the stresses of being used as structural support elements.
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Offline Finsky

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Re: My experiences in insulating and heat economy of hives
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2007, 02:36:33 am »
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After trials I bought heaters from Germany via internet shop. http://www.reptilica.de/product_info.php/product/Namiba_Terra_Heizkabel_Cable_Heater_-zweiadrig-

When I install heaters into hive, they have not much which can catch cold. Bees are tightly around their 200 hundred pupae.

I have them 3 types.   3 W, 6 W and 15 W.

3W for winter.
6W for nucs
15 W for normal hives

My hives are on my cottage yard and I draw wires around my yard. It is as unlegal as oxalic acid in USA , but .....

Offline Finsky

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Re: My experiences in insulating and heat economy of hives
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2007, 02:44:59 am »

I am planning homebuilt Lang hive of 1/4in plywood exterior skin and 1-1/2in styrofoam (polyplast??) lined interior all six sides.

That construction is the most popular self made in Finland. If I bye it from shop, it is double price compared to styrofoam boxes.

Stryrofoam boxes are easy to repair with polyuretane clue.

Many have made own hives from polyuretane construction board but it is too soft to use. Lowsy material in hives.
I have used polyuretane board as inner cover but bees skew it badly and it is difficult to keep clean.

You need only insulated brood champers, 2-3 per hive, and others can be normal panel wall 20-30 mm.

 

anything