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Author Topic: I?m in trouble again  (Read 83597 times)

Offline Guitarman

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I?m in trouble again
« on: June 20, 2024, 01:12:56 am »
Very briefly, I have a hive that?s a mess and I haven?t pulled it apart and it?s winter again so I won?t touch it till summer. Some of you might remember my post where I tried to under super and al that stuff but I?ve had no success. I?ve come out today and we are in winter here, to find maybe 100 Larvae  that have been thrown on the ground in front of the hive. I have no idea what?s going on. I don?t know if it?s been robbed I have no idea. When the heat comes on during the day, the hive looks very active, but when it?s raining or really cold, there?s just a couple of bees coming and going. I?ve never taken Honey off them  and they had plenty in there when I last looked. In the summer I did put a super on top to go three stories high, but by the end of summer with winter  starting they hadn?t done anything in that box so I took it back off a few months ago. I will try and attach some photos if it doesn?t give me grief. I have no idea what?s going on. This is way beyond my level of expertise.

Offline Guitarman

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2024, 01:21:27 am »
Here?s a picture

Offline Lesgold

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2024, 06:23:04 am »
 Hi Guitarman,

What?s your varroa count like? From memory, you are in Sydney and people are starting to struggle with it in some areas of the western suburbs. Your bees will not be flying in great numbers when it is wet or cold. I stayed up there last night and it was cool. There has been a cold change that has gone through most of the state.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2024, 08:17:21 am »
Guitarman,
I cannot tell from the picture but my bet, due to the onset of winter is that they are drone larvae. The bees do not want to support drones when no food is coming in. Take a clear closeup of one so that we can verify what it is.
Jim Altmiller
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Online The15thMember

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2024, 11:15:17 am »
I agree with Les and Jim.  The bees are pulling pupae they don't wish to come to adulthood for some reason.  It could be, especially if they are drones, that the colony doesn't want to support them during the winter season, so they have pulled them out.  Or the pupae could be infested with varroa mites or some other pest or disease, which they don't want spread to the rest of the brood.  Or, it could be that the hive doesn't have enough pollen to feed all the brood, so they have removed some, although in instances like that they will typically cannibalize the brood instead.  As Les said, if it's below roughly 15C (60F) and if it's raining regardless of temperature, the bees will not do much foraging.   
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Offline Guitarman

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2024, 12:32:52 pm »
It?s past midnight here, I?ve just gotten home from work, but I went out and took some pictures in the dark, I hope these help.

Online The15thMember

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2024, 02:12:23 pm »
Those are definitely drones.  So if your weather has taken a colder turn recently, I'd assume it's just that.
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2024, 07:35:12 am »
Being that they are drones being pulled out going into winter is a good thing. They are conserving their food supply when the drones are no longer needed for mating.
One of our new club members kept feeding his bees straight through his first winter and he had lots of drones all the way into spring. We had told him to expect to see drones being kicked out in the fall and couldn?t understand why he still had them. We told him it was the constant feeding. By the way, we had very mild weather that year.
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Offline Guitarman

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2024, 11:36:11 am »
Well it?s been three months since I last posted. In the last couple of weeks I?ve had so many drones. Not only flying around the hive in big numbers but there?s big numbers on the ground crawling everywhere and dying. I did some googling and drones at this time of year is normal as it?s warming time very soon if not now. It?s the first time I?ve ever seen all these drones everywhere but I didn?t panic because what I read said it was normal and it doesn?t mean your hive is going  to  swarm or anything like that. Okay so what I?m saying here is I have heaps of drones.

Okay the next point I want to make is I was at my back window and I could hear the roar of the bees. And I thought are they swarming. I ran outside and it was a warm day in middle of the day. And the bees were crazy active and you could hear the roar in the front of the hive. I got up without a few metres and I watched them to see if they were swarming or what was going on. Not that I would have any idea what to look for. But what I did notice was none of the bees  coming in had any pollen on them. I watched about five minutes and I didn?t see one bee With any pollen. And being very experienced 😂 owning one hive and being a Newby. I wondered are these bees robbing the hive. I did some more googling and it appears it?s highly likely they were. 
They were busy again today but not as noisy as yesterday and I watched for about five minutes again and saw two bees coming with pollen on them. So I decided I need to put some mesh in the front and make that opening  much smaller. At the moment it?s a full width  opening. I came up with a great idea of doing it at night. When the bees are all asleep. It should be easy to go out there and just put some mesh in that opening. So it?s almost midnight and I go out. Mesh in hand. There?s about 15 to 20 bees sitting on the ledge or out the front. I?m thinking this is gonna be easy. I?ll just slide the mesh in. Well before I could even get the mesh to the opening, a surge bees started coming out. It was like they?ve been called the war. They could smell me. And I just had a shower too. They smelt me and they were coming out in huge numbers. So I backed away a little and they quickly calm down and went back in. So in my stupidity, I thought I?ll push the mesh in now really quick while there?s hardly any bees there. I never got the mesh in. They attacked me like crazy in the dark. I was lucky only got one sting in my shoulder.

When I got near the entrance before they went crazy, I was amazed at the noise coming from inside the box. You could hear all those bees in there flapping their wings. I had been quite concerned with the robber bees earlier that my hive was dead or had no queen.

So I learnt one thing tonight. If you think you can go to your hives  in the dark and do any work you?re kidding yourself.

My question to those experienced just a little bit more than me😂 is this. Could all the drones mean anything. Am I wrong thinking because there was no pollen on any bees that they were robber bees.

I?m thinking  suiting up tomorrow  to go and have a look inside for the first time in six months. Have no idea what I?m looking for and if I find queen cells, is this a good time for me to separate my frames that are all stuck together. Because if I accidentally kill the Queen, It won?t be a problem.

Online Terri Yaki

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2024, 12:40:16 pm »
Do you know what orientation flights look like? It could have been orientation for new fliers.

Offline max2

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2024, 01:52:04 pm »
Guitarman.
Don't open the hive if you don't know what you are looking for.
Ask somebody with more experience to help you out.
Robbing in September would be very unusual here. This is the time when there is plenty of food around - no need to rob.
The drones - a new one to me.
It sounds to me like your bees have swarmed.
if you are opening up the hive, look for queen cells.
Check for brood at all stages of development.
Much honey stored?
Report back....

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2024, 06:36:51 am »
A huge amount of activity is usually robbing.  A large amount might be robbing or orientation flights.  Bees fighting is pretty good evidence that robbing is taking place, but sometimes there doesn't seem to be any robbing.  Robbers are frantic.  Local residents are not.  Robbers will be trying to get in every crack.  Locals will be going in the entrance.
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Online The15thMember

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2024, 03:02:56 pm »
Welcome back, Guitarman!  :happy:  Yes, doing anything with bees at night is risky business!  I agree with max2 that it might be a good idea for you to find a mentor who can help you out.  Opening the colony to take stock of the situation is probably a good idea, but it might be more informative if you had someone with a little bit of experience could help you understand what you are looking at and what to expect for your upcoming season as far as colony growth, the timing of flows, etc.  If you don't have access to a mentor and want to go ahead with the inspection yourself, maybe you could film the inspection or at least take some pictures and post them here, them maybe we could help you sort through the situation a little better.   
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Offline Guitarman

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2024, 01:41:57 pm »
Wonderful news re-my hive. Really bad news re-varroa and other people?s hives in Sydney.
I fixed my hive. By myself. I opened it. And it was full of honey. Not full of brood like it usually is.Only 2 frames had a little brood. I took the opportunity knowing queen won?t be in the honey frames. I took a large knife and cut through the mess very slowly and gently  and pulled frame after frame out. I now have ten new  frames in that box at last. And about 30 kg of honey to extract when I get a chance.

For all Sydney people, experiencing varroa for the first time. Today I went and helped an 86-year-old beekeeper who was going to help me with my hive. I only met him about a week ago. He had six hives that he wanted to go and empty the supers on. When we arrived at the location. His two best hives which were triple high were dead. The others were doubles. One was looking ok but the others weren?t very active. The one looking okay the super was full and we took that. But the Varroa has killed his best and strongest hives and I suspect he?ll lose a few more even though he?s going to buy formic pro and put it in tomorrow try save those remaining  weak hives. The pupae when I dug them out had varroa on them very alive. Some having 3 mites in the one cell. Pupae all dead of course. First time I?ve seen the varroa and the first time he?s seen it too. Took his strongest hives down very quick.

I?m buying formic pro as well. I?m certain my hive has varroa. Im sure all Sydney has it now. I?m going to treat it. I hate the idea of killing so many bees to test the count but I probably should do so. The big problem we have is you can?t use formic pro over 29?C and it is often over 30? for the whole summer. I?m not sure how we meant to treat varroa in the middle of summer if needed.

Online Terri Yaki

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2024, 01:51:17 pm »
Sorry to hear about those losses. I was wondering...my understanding is that the temps are only important for the first 2 or 3 days. Could the strips be left out in the open for those first days and installed after they dissipated a little?

Online The15thMember

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2024, 05:40:40 pm »
Nice job, Guitarman!  Way to go!  :happy: 

Not full of brood like it usually is.Only 2 frames had a little brood.
Coming off winter, I would assume the colony wouldn't be very large yet, but this sounds like a very small brood nest to me.  Did you happen to notice if you had eggs or young larvae?  I'm wondering if you still have a laying queen.

I now have ten new  frames in that box at last.
Do those new frames that you put in there in place of the honey frames have drawn comb, foundation, or are they just completely blank?  We just want to make sure they don't make a mess of things this time. 

First time I?ve seen the varroa and the first time he?s seen it too. Took his strongest hives down very quick.

Taking down the biggest strongest hives really fast is typical of varroa.  I just had it happen with my largest colony.  They were in 7 mediums at the height of summer, and today I put the handful of remaining bees in the freezer.  :sad: 

I?m buying formic pro as well. I?m certain my hive has varroa. Im sure all Sydney has it now. I?m going to treat it. I hate the idea of killing so many bees to test the count but I probably should do so. The big problem we have is you can?t use formic pro over 29?C and it is often over 30? for the whole summer. I?m not sure how we meant to treat varroa in the middle of summer if needed.
I use FormicPro at times, and I'm using some right now actually.  I would not recommend using it if it's even close to the recommended maximum temperature.  It's potent stuff and very temperature sensitive, and many people report queen supersedure, high brood mortality, and even absconding when using it in warmer temps.  I've never used it above 80F/28C and I haven't had any issues personally, but the bees are always more upset by it and there is always more brood mortality when it's warmer.  I've used it successfully in temps as low as highs around 60F/15.5C.  I particularly like it as a treatment because it penetrates the comb to kill the varroa in the brood, it's honey super safe, and it also takes out any bees who are sick.  But I wouldn't recommend it as a midsummer treatment.  Not sure what else is available to you in Australia.  I personally just don't treat at the height of summer, as varroa populations aren't likely to peak then anyway with the way our flows are timed.

I would recommend doing a mite check before and after a treatment to check the efficacy.  I don't like killing bees to do a mite test either, so I do a sugar roll instead of an alcohol wash.  You'll still kill some likely, but not all of them.  Just multiply your results by 1.3, since the sugar roll is less accurate.

Sorry to hear about those losses. I was wondering...my understanding is that the temps are only important for the first 2 or 3 days. Could the strips be left out in the open for those first days and installed after they dissipated a little?
The temps are most important for the first few days, but they are still important for the duration of the treatment.  And the trouble is those first couple of days are when you are getting the best kill, so it seems like a waste to me, and FormicPro isn't cheap.  You'd also have to be very careful about where you set them out as the vapors are very dangerous to breathe in for people and mammals.             
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 05:56:54 pm by The15thMember »
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Offline max2

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2024, 06:00:41 pm »
15th


Taking down the biggest strongest hives really fast is typical of varroa.  I just had it happen with my largest colony.  They were in 7 mediums at the height of summer, and today I put the handful of remaining bees in the freezer.  :sad: 

Sad indeed. How do you clean up the frames in the 7 mediums?
In our subtropical climate  it is impossible to store frames in the open - Moths would have a field day.
I guess it would be OK if you have hives which need supering up?

I have just finished taking 1/2 T of honey off. The second round this season.
Unlike most of you in the US, I only have one or two honey supers on top of the broodbox.
When these are full I extraxct the honey and back go the frames to be filled up again.

Point: when we get varroa, we don't have 7 supers  to clean up.


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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2024, 06:28:33 pm »
I use all mediums, so this colony had 3 boxes of brood and 4 supers.  But that was in like July, and this is not typical for me, this colony was massive.  I had taken 2 supers of honey off in August, so they were in 5 boxes when I noticed the problem last week, and I condensed them to 2 boxes.  I wasn't sure if they still had a queen or not, so I let them go for another week to see if they'd have brood, but they didn't when I checked them today.  This happened very quickly, because we have trouble with moths too, and hive beetles, and all the comb was pristine last week.  Today they did have some beetle damage, but only on one frame.  To clean up a deadout or a situation like this, I'll just freeze all the frames to kill all the pests, then cut out and toss any comb that has been destroyed.  Drawn blanks are stored in tightly stacked extra bee boxes in my garage, sometimes with mothballs if it seems like it's a bad year for moths or a warm winter, and frames with pollen or honey in them I store in plastic bins.  That keeps them safe from beetles, moths, and mice. 
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Offline Guitarman

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2024, 06:55:34 pm »
Close up of comb. Are the holes in caps entry or exit holes varroa
And the pupae from one of the cells.
I know you USA guys have had it for a long time but this is our first encounter. And it?s a reality check for us.

Offline Guitarman

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Re: I?m in trouble again
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2024, 07:04:33 pm »
Try again