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Author Topic: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?  (Read 6473 times)

Offline armjr

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Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« on: November 01, 2023, 08:34:57 pm »
Former beekeeper from the 80s, the 1980s?. Became allergic and had to give it up but my gardening still requires that I take care of the Bees. 

I will pose my question here.  My pine trees (I have about 20) have been attacked by pine borer beetles.  I've already lost one tree and there's holes in the rest of them.  The way to stop them is to drench around the tree with Domion 2L.  I also use Termidor very sparingly applied to fire ant mounds.  Both are systemic to plants and very bad for bees. 

Will the drench on the pine trees kill my bees?  I know they use the sap, I don't know how much pollen they collect from them. 

I need to save the pines and save the bees at the same time.  Any suggestions?

Alan
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 11:08:19 pm by armjr »

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2023, 08:50:05 pm »
Armjr welcome to Beemaster! I for one do not know the answer to your questions. Maybe you can contact the manufacturer of the product and get more information there? Please let us know what you find.. And thanks for watching out for the Honey Bees!   :grin:

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14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline armjr

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2023, 09:04:12 pm »
We really like our bees, all of them, and wasps too.  We love to sit out in the mornings and watch the honeybees on the mexican heather and the big old bumble bees doing their thing with the salvia.  Every now and then a hummingbird will swoop in for a drink.  Our purplehull peas and green beans depend on all the pollinators to make a crop, but I haven?t found anything I like about pine borer beetles?. or fire ants? or cut ants?

Alan

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2023, 09:18:55 pm »
Quote
but I haven?t found anything I like about pine borer beetles?. or fire ants? or cut ants?

lol neither have I Alan!!

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2023, 09:41:04 pm »
Welcome to Beemaster, Alan!  :happy:  Thanks for being sure that your pesticide application is done responsibly.  I almost lost a hive to pesticide kill this year and it was very sad, so it's great that you are being careful. 

I'm not an expert in this by any means, but I did a little looking at both products.  Dominion 2L is an imidacloprid product, which as you say, is a persistent and highly toxic systemic insecticide.  The biggest concern I have about it is that according to the label, it can persist in woody plants for 12 months, meaning that even if you applied it in winter, it would still be present in the tree during the spring and summer when the bees are flying.  The other common neonic used for beetles, dinotefuran, persists just as long.  Both pesticides have been linked to numerous bee kills.

I'm less concerned about the Termidor, since I see that fipronil, the active ingredient, isn't absorbed well by plants, even though it is very toxic to bees and persists for years in the soil.  My concern about it however, is that it won't work well for you on the beetles, because the tree won't absorb it well.   

This is a tough one, because a systemic insecticide would obviously work best to control a boring insect, and you will need to apply it less, which can be safer for pollinators.  But the insecticides we are talking about are very dangerous to pollinators inherently, with both lethal and sub-lethal effects, so a different type of insecticide would be desirable.  It's kind of a toss-up in my mind.

You can certainly do what you feel is best in your situation, but if it were me, if your property has a pretty healthy ecosystem, which is sounds like it does, I'd let the infestation go if possible, and see what predators come to deal with the borer beetles.  That way you wouldn't have to use any pesticides.  But I also understand if you are past that point already, and feel like risking a drastic step is necessary.

All insects have a purpose in their ecosystem webs, even it's just to be the bottom of a food chain.  Beetles and ants that break down trees and wood perform parasite/host interactions with the plants they infest to strengthen the population of trees by attacking weaker plants and returning the nutrients bound up in the tree to the soil.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline armjr

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2023, 11:23:31 pm »
We had a pair of pileated woodpeckers around for years.  They disappeared this year.  I imagine they kept the beetles in check somewhat.  I have noticed a good many pines in the area dying.  I think the drought allowed the beetles to do more damage than nature would keep up with. I also lost two hackberries, two Arizona Ash and a sweet gum.  All to borers.

Last year I saw a swarm go over the back yard.  I followed them for about 300 yards hoping I?d see them settle in on something but they outran me.  My wife said she heard a lot of bees just this afternoon.  She said it was really loud and kinda faded away.  It had to be a swarm. I don?t know how good they are going to do right now.  Something may have disturbed their hive and they moved. 

I?ll have to research the dominion thing a little more.  Thanks for the advice and direction.

Alan
 

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2023, 06:06:00 am »
How much of the ground do you have to drench?  Can you put something over it to keep bees etc. out?  I doubt the bees will take much interest in the drench and pines don't make much that interests the bees.
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Offline armjr

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2023, 08:51:13 am »
I can water in the drench and right now there?s nothing around the trees that bees would want.  What I am concerned about is as the trees transfer the poison up through the phloem to kill the beetles and larvae it will be in the sap and ultimately in any pollen produced. If there is sufficient poison in the tree to kill a beetle larvae, there certainly could be enough to kill a bee or many bees if they do indeed gather pine pollen and sap for propolis. 

Alan

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2023, 09:26:18 am »
Armjr,
Bees don?t normally collect pine pollen. It is an airborne pollen and very low in nutrients. When pines are producing pollen usually there is enough other plants producing pollen that they prefer.
The only pine pollen that they would collect is the pollen that is attracted to their bodies as they fly and it would bee too small to worry about.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2023, 12:47:33 pm »
Taking the point of Beemaster2 into consideration, (bees do not collect pine pollen), my recommendation of contacting the manufacturer of this product still stands from my point of view. The studies should reveal whether or not this product is a threat to 'Honey Bees' as well as others.. Please let us know your findings.

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2023, 12:57:26 pm »
there certainly could be enough to kill a bee or many bees if they do indeed gather pine pollen and sap for propolis. 
The proplis collection is the bigger concern in my opinion.  I agree with everyone else that the risk of them collecting large amounts of pine pollen is minimal, but I would think it could be a serious problem for a colony to coat the interior of their hive in propolis laced with an insecticide. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2023, 01:02:54 pm »
there certainly could be enough to kill a bee or many bees if they do indeed gather pine pollen and sap for propolis. 
The proplis collection is the bigger concern in my opinion.  I agree with everyone else that the risk of them collecting large amounts of pine pollen is minimal, but I would think it could be a serious problem for a colony to coat the interior of their hive in propolis laced with an insecticide. 

The manufacturers study will, (or should), be able to answer 'all' questions concerning any threat, or potential danger to the 'Honey Bee' as well as other bees....
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online The15thMember

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2023, 01:21:20 pm »
I think that contacting the manufacturer is a good idea, but something to keep in mind about product labeling for pollinator safety is that sublethal effects are rarely tested for, meaning that the application according to label may be considered "safe" in the sense that it won't kill the bees outright, but it can still have very negative effects on their health.  Also hardly any pesticides are tested on bees other than honey bees, and often the effects are more pronounced in bumble bees and solitary bees, since they don't have a huge colony to replace losses or lost productivity due to pesticide exposures. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2023, 01:56:05 pm »
We have every right to be concerned.  I do know the Honey Bee collect propolis from pine as well as other trees. I do not know more than that pertaining to the product in relation to the HOney Bee. 
One might ask, "Will there be enough of this product in the propolis when the bee reaches the area of collection, to kill bees?"  "If so will it kill the bee before it can return to the hive with the load of propolis?"  "What are the effects on the bees, short term and long?"  These are good questions to ask the manufacturer, or even the folks at the EPA if satisfaction is not reached from the manufacturer.
Now would be a good time for a suggestion list of questions, for the convenience of armjr to consider when he contacts the company.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2023, 08:18:05 pm »
Keep in mind, bees don?t eat propolis. They do not feed it to the larvae. They do soften it and pack it into spaces smaller than bee space.
I don?t think that it will affect your bees.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2023, 09:37:40 pm »
Thanks Jim. I knew they don't use it as food, but what I 'didn't and don't' know is how they 'transport and transform' it,
( or process it if you will), for their use.
I had 'assumed' they ingest for each? I'm Still learning.. :grin: :grin: 

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2023, 09:48:22 pm »
Keep in mind, bees don?t eat propolis. They do not feed it to the larvae. They do soften it and pack it into spaces smaller than bee space.
I don?t think that it will affect your bees.
Jim Altmiller
True, they aren't ingesting propolis, but imidacloprid is still dangerous to bees as a contact insecticide.  The LD50 number (the dose needed to kill half of the individuals in the toxicity test) for honey bees when ingested is 5-70 nanograms per bee, whereas the contact LD50 is 60-240 nanograms.   

Thanks Jim. I knew they don't use it as food, but what I 'didn't and don't' know is how they 'transport and transform' it for their use. I had 'assumed' they ingested for each? I'm Still learning.. :grin: :grin: 

Phillip
Bees carry resin in their pollen baskets and then make it into propolis by mixing it with some beeswax and saliva.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline armjr

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2023, 09:56:13 pm »
Ok, I have some questions already.


1. Will the drench remain in the soil in the root zone of flowering plants long enough to for bees to ingest it collecting pollen and nectar?
2. Does Dominion 2L have to be ingested or will it kill by contact with plant sap and/or proximity?
3.


Alan


« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 10:27:20 pm by armjr »

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2023, 11:09:34 pm »
Quote
Bees carry resin in their pollen baskets and then make it into propolis by mixing it with some beeswax and saliva.

Thanks Reagan, good stuff. So you are saying the bees chew it, mix saliva with it as well, adding beeswax , but do not ingest. If that is the case, and knowing what we know about pine pollen not being in their diet; Adding I have found nothing that bees collect pine nectar which is naught or non applicable because pine does not produce nectar?

All of that being taken into consideration, hypothetically the bees have no reason to die or get sick form the product in question (unless contact through the collected substance will kill them as they chew)? Either way I would still recommend armjr contact the manufacturer of the product for the purpose of seeking answers to 'all' his questions, just for good measure.. 
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

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Re: Dominion 2L, Termidor and Bees?
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2023, 11:41:30 pm »
1. Will the drench remain in the soil in the root zone of flowering plants long enough to for bees to ingest it collecting pollen and nectar?
If you are speaking of the Dominion, the drench will be taken up by the plants and incorporated into all of its tissues, so into its pollen, nectar, resin, leaves, stem, flowers, seed, etc.  It will not remain only in the soil.  If it did, it would be pretty safe for use around honey bees, although it could affect native bees nesting in the soil of course.  But because the insecticide is present all throughout the plant and in any substance it produces, and can remain active in the plant for a year, it has the potential to affect bees and other insects eating or collecting materials from the tree.

For the Termidor, it won't be taken up by the plants much at all, so it's not a big concern for bees, except of course soil nesting ones.

2. Does Dominion 2L have to be ingested or will it kill by contact with plant sap and/or proximity?

Dominion 2L (imidacloprid) must be ingested by insects or at least contact them to kill them, proximity is not an issue.  It is more toxic when ingested, but is still lethal to bees in physical contact with it if the dosage is high enough or exposure is prolonged enough.  If the Dominion is present in high enough concentration in the tree's sap and the bees collect it for use in making propolis, it could kill the bees who have contact with that propolis.  I do not know if drenching the tree following the label's instructions will make the tree's resin carry a lethal dose or not, nor do I know what sub-lethal effects there could be on the bees. 

Without doing the math, which I may try to do if I have the time, I don't know if it's realistic to assume the dosage of Dominion would be high enough or bee's contact with the propolis while making it or simply existing in the hive with it would be prolonged enough to harm enough bees to make a significant difference to the functioning of the hive.  I'm simply saying that it's theoretically possible and should be taken into consideration as part of the risk of using this pesticide.     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.