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Author Topic: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?  (Read 2162 times)

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2020, 04:23:50 pm »
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Take social security now that the Trump administration has classified it as an entitlement (hand out).

it has always been called an entitlement or a benefit.  It is neither.  It is an enforced savings program and once you have taken out more than you put in + interest, it's welfare. 

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There are many other social programs that most people like and would not want to be without.  I don't know why it is so difficult for government to help people in need without making it a free ride.

There have been various attempts over the years to require that people work for those handouts.  Clinton and Gingrich negotiated "Workfare" and it was claimed by Clinton that it would end welfare as we know it.  It did not, and it ended up never being required for most people anyway.  Too many exceptions. 

The poverty level in this country, in spite of the changes over the years in how it is calculated, has never changed much.  It runs around 12% give or take a % depending on the economy.  That's not bad.  It should also be remembered that the population in poverty is not static.  People move in and out of it just as they move in and out of wealth.

What is a constant is that no one moves out of poverty because of welfare.  It is also remarkable that we have close to 50% of the population that get some kind of government assistance and pay little to no taxes.  They get all or more back in rebates, yet they can vote.  If we get to the point where 1/2 the voting population is getting free stuff you can see where that goes for the rest of us.

That's the reason the left is so hell bent on making sure they are passing out goodies.  It has nothing to do with taking care of people who can't care for themselves.  It has everything to do with being able to say "If you vote for them, you lose your free stuff". 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2020, 08:41:55 am »
It is an enforced savings program
It certainly isn't.  If it were there would be an account number associated with what you put in and disbursements would be equal to what you put in.  It is a tax that is meant to support the system but politicians keep robbing it.  The tax is higher than it needs to be for just ss but you have to make up for the robbing.

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There have been various attempts over the years to require that people work for those handouts.  Clinton and Gingrich negotiated "Workfare" and it was claimed by Clinton that it would end welfare as we know it.  It did not, and it ended up never being required for most people anyway.  Too many exceptions. 
Maybe a loan system would be better where the disbursements decrease over time until they run out.  At the end of the help period you are on your own unless you repay the debt.
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The poverty level in this country, in spite of the changes over the years in how it is calculated, has never changed much.  It runs around 12% give or take a % depending on the economy.  That's not bad.  It should also be remembered that the population in poverty is not static.  People move in and out of it just as they move in and out of wealth.
  I think that is just making the 12% figure fit the poverty level regardless of who is in poverty.

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What is a constant is that no one moves out of poverty because of welfare.  It is also remarkable that we have close to 50% of the population that get some kind of government assistance and pay little to no taxes.
Much of that assistance goes to older retirees who didn't worry about the situation they would be in.
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That's the reason the left is so hell bent on making sure they are passing out goodies.  It has nothing to do with taking care of people who can't care for themselves.  It has everything to do with being able to say "If you vote for them, you lose your free stuff".
There is some of that.  The choice is to do nothing for anybody or support those that don't deserve it.  And I keep asking this question, why does it have to be that way?  Why can't the needy get help and the lazy get nothing?  I believe the root cause is that political occupations are too lucrative and money is too influential.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2020, 10:47:28 am »
Careful, Ace, you are making sense there. People are going to think you are a Rep. if you keep it up. Good post from you and Kathy.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2020, 11:30:02 am »
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It certainly isn't.  If it were there would be an account number associated with what you put in and disbursements would be equal to what you put in.  It is a tax that is meant to support the system but politicians keep robbing it.  The tax is higher than it needs to be for just ss but you have to make up for the robbing.

It was sold to the American people as a way to save money by way of the government.  It is funded by way of a payroll tax.  While it is true that the money is often used for other things, that has nothing to do with the health of the SSI system.  When congress uses that money they essentially put an IOU into the piggy bank.  The health of the system is calculated with those IOUs taken into account.  The system is not sustainable as it now exists.

The best fix is to just turn it into a welfare program and call it good.  Alternately, and my choice, would be to end it.  If you put your money into investments rather than giving it to the government, you end up with more anyway.  If you choose not to save, too bad.  Choices have consequences.

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Maybe a loan system would be better where the disbursements decrease over time until they run out.  At the end of the help period you are on your own unless you repay the debt.

An interesting idea.  You also could put a hard time limit on anyone getting assistance except those who can't care for themselves and have no family to help.  All kinds of things could be done other than just handing out stuff.

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  I think that is just making the 12% figure fit the poverty level regardless of who is in poverty.

The way the poverty level is calculated has changed over the decades.  For the most part, it has changed in such a way as to make the number bigger.  More people calculated to be in poverty, more goodies handed out, and more votes.  Regardless of how they have done it, the level has stayed in that range.  What that tells me is that the real poverty level has gone down over the years, even as the desire to give stuff away and garner more votes has gone up.

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Much of that assistance goes to older retirees who didn't worry about the situation they would be in.

Not really.  We have cradle to grave opportunities to suck off the system.  Start with WIC at birth and move on from there.

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There is some of that.  The choice is to do nothing for anybody or support those that don't deserve it.  And I keep asking this question, why does it have to be that way?  Why can't the needy get help and the lazy get nothing?  I believe the root cause is that political occupations are too lucrative and money is too influential.

Welcome to the conservative side of the aisle!  :cheesy:



They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2020, 01:14:23 pm »

Welcome to the conservative side of the aisle!  :cheesy:
It is neither.  It is the middle.  Conservatives don't care for anyone but themselves.  Look at how fast they grab onto socialism when it benefits them.
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2020, 04:26:51 pm »
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Conservatives don't care for anyone but themselves.  Look at how fast they grab onto socialism when it benefits them.

Can you expand on that a bit?  I'm not sure what you mean.  Some examples maybe?
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2020, 05:36:00 pm »
Deficit spending is a no no for most conservatives but when Trump did it predominantly for the well off they were all for it.  Even though most are smart enough to know who is going to pay the piper.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2020, 06:16:10 pm »
Trump didn't do any of it. He just requested it and congress did the spending.

A BIPARTISAN EFFORT.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2020, 09:34:40 am »
Trump didn't do any of it. He just requested it and congress did the spending.

A BIPARTISAN EFFORT.
Come on Wally did you get that from FOX?
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2020, 12:41:32 pm »
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Deficit spending is a no no for most conservatives but when Trump did it predominantly for the well off they were all for it.

First, there is a difference between conservatives and republicans.  One might be both, but often Republicans are not conservatives. 

The deficit spending was not for the wall.  In fact, Congress had already allocated a big chunk of money for that under previous presidents.  There are a couple of places he did increase spending.  One was on the military and the other COVID.  Again, that money comes from congress.  The president has no ability to allocate funds.  His budget is a wish list. 

The COVID spending would have been trillions higher is NP had her way, and now she might.
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline iddee

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2020, 03:39:16 pm »
NO. I got it from the constitution. Maybe you should check it out. It's a great source of info,
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2020, 09:05:51 am »
Again, that money comes from congress.
Yes, but Trump had the senate under his thumb.  Initially he didn't and they were resisting him.  But enough of the swamp caved and then it became a rubber stamp.  The president has very limited powers unless congress sides with him.  To be honest it would be far better if the senate went democrat then it wouldn't matter if Trump won.
Biden winning just proves that the majority of American don't like Trump and don't approve of him.  I don't expect Biden to be all that successful because he has (at this moment) the opposing swamp that will block anything he wants to do like they did with Obama.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline iddee

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2020, 03:32:17 pm »
"Biden winning just proves that the majority of American don't like Trump and don't approve of him.""

NO, It proves There are many more crooked Biden supporters than crooked Trump supporters counting votes.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2020, 06:44:00 pm »
"Biden winning just proves that the majority of American don't like Trump and don't approve of him.""

NO, It proves There are many more crooked Biden supporters than crooked Trump supporters counting votes.
It is now 2023 and iddee and the useful idiots are still bleating " the dems stole the election" but it doesn't matter they are irrelevant......find the dark corner iddee.... you know it makes sense (I hope) 
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2020, 07:43:18 pm »
Cider,
It ain?t over yet. Stand by. Besides getting a lawful count, it is the electoral college that actually votes in the president.
Jim Altmiller

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2020, 07:46:01 pm »
"Biden winning just proves that the majority of American don't like Trump and don't approve of him.""

NO, It proves There are many more crooked Biden supporters than crooked Trump supporters counting votes.
It is now 2023 and iddee and the useful idiots are still bleating " the dems stole the election" but it doesn't matter they are irrelevant......find the dark corner iddee.... you know it makes sense (I hope)

Cider, to much pills and salt causing more delusion? Cider look at the heading where you just posted. The reality is it is 2020 not 2023, actually November 10, 2020. Please; I am concerned about you, I realize you are most likely on edge especially since iddee reported NC was officially won by Mr Trump. But goodness man, it is 11;41 PM there. Does Nurse Alice know you are sneaking around on you computer this late?   :shocked: :cheesy: :grin: We are glad for your company. Don't worry, we won't tell.  lol.    :wink:




                                                                                                                                                                                .
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 08:02:21 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2020, 08:52:38 pm »
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Yes, but Trump had the senate under his thumb.  Initially he didn't and they were resisting him.  But enough of the swamp caved and then it became a rubber stamp.  The president has very limited powers unless congress sides with him.  To be honest it would be far better if the senate went democrat then it wouldn't matter if Trump won.

OMG.  You need to take a government class before you have any more of these conversations about money or legislation.

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville