Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?  (Read 864 times)

Offline Kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17497
  • Gender: Female
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2020, 11:49:30 am »
Quote
There is two forms of power, money and the masses.  As long as the masses can offset the power of money a dictator will not come to power.  A written constitutions means nothing when power goes the other way.  It is not socialism that creates the dictator, it is money.  The Trump supporters point to his money.  Ironically he doesn't have any.
There is no dictator in power because of their socialistic views.  They are there because of money.

Quote
There is two forms of power, money and the masses.

Those are two powers.  The law is designed to constrain both. The law, or the enforcement of the law, is a power.  The constitution is the law.  It is specifically designed to protect the people from masses, and those who would in other ways take the natural rights of the people.
Interesting to me is that the left (of both parties) are hot to give those natural rights to the government.  You invite the circumstances that lead to the loss of rights.

Quote
A written constitution means nothing when power goes the other way.

Not if it is treated as law.  Only if it is treated as a "living document" subject to the whims of the current powers.  Thus the need for originalists on the court.

Quote
There is no dictator in power because of their socialistic views.

This is demonstrably untrue.  They may have used their money to promote their views and facilitate taking power, but it is the views that led to the dictatorship.
Most of the founders of this country and subsequent leaders have been wealthy.  Wealth is not evil.  Wealth allows people to do things for good or evil.  Money is like weapons.  It does not jump off the table and do stuff by itself.






They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 11390
  • Gender: Male
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2020, 02:10:26 pm »
As usual, that is a really good post. I totally agree.
Jim Altmiller

Online Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6098
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2020, 08:50:27 am »
The law, or the enforcement of the law, is a power.
Always overridden by money.
Quote
Most of the founders of this country and subsequent leaders have been wealthy.

And were bigots.
I find it so ironic that you Kathy would be a second class citizen, have no right to vote and be excluded from most parts of the military if the constitution (law in your words) did not have the ability to change.  Be careful for what you wish for.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17497
  • Gender: Female
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2020, 10:00:56 pm »
Quote
The law, or the enforcement of the law, is a power.
Always overridden by money.
Quote
Most of the founders of this country and subsequent leaders have been wealthy.

And were bigots.
I find it so ironic that you Kathy would be a second class citizen, have no right to vote and be excluded from most parts of the military if the constitution (law in your words) did not have the ability to change.  Be careful for what you wish for.

I said the constitution was the law.  I did not say that it could not be changed.  Until it is changed, it is the law.

as for the founders being bigots, they were people of their times.  We can't just the past by the present.

 One of the things I enjoy when I go overseas is crawling around old ruins.  Many of those old ruins were built by people who conquered others and used slave labor.  By today's standards, they would be condemned.  By the standards of their times, they built great things and spread civiliaztion and law across a barbarian world.  Would we want the Roman, Greek, or Persian standards now?  No.  did we, and do we, benefit from what they did?  Yes.

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6098
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2020, 08:43:49 am »
Until it is changed, it is the law.

as for the founders being bigots, they were people of their times.  We can't just the past by the present.

 One of the things I enjoy when I go overseas is crawling around old ruins.  Many of those old ruins were built by people who conquered others and used slave labor.  By today's standards, they would be condemned.  By the standards of their times, they built great things and spread civiliaztion and law across a barbarian world.  Would we want the Roman, Greek, or Persian standards now?  No.  did we, and do we, benefit from what they did?  Yes.

So how is it that a sitting president can get away with campaigning on the white house lawn?  How is it that he can use the presidency for his personal gain?  How is it that he can lie to the american people (the world for that matter)?  How is it that he can interfere in an investigation of himself?  How is it that he can ignore treaties with other countries?  By his own words he can break any law he so desires.  He has the money (another lie)
If we cannot judge the past by the present we surely will return to it.
I see no value to civilization by collecting taxes from concurred people, building pyramids and burying the valuables in the pyramids.  Where I see a benefit to civilization is when countries work together to maintain peace and freedoms, work together to combat disease, work together to prevent starvation, work together to create technical advancement.  Nun of this is benefited by slavery.  Slavery slows down civilization and keeps wealth flowing to a select few.  Exactly the goals of Mr Trump.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17497
  • Gender: Female
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2020, 12:13:37 pm »
Quote
So how is it that a sitting president can get away with campaigning on the white house lawn?  How is it that he can use the presidency for his personal gain?  How is it that he can lie to the american people (the world for that matter)?  How is it that he can interfere in an investigation of himself?  How is it that he can ignore treaties with other countries?  By his own words he can break any law he so desires.  He has the money (another lie)

Lets assume that your portrayal of Trumps actions is accurate.  I don't have time to take them point by point.
Can you list which parts of the constitution/law he has broken? 


Quote
If we cannot judge the past by the present we surely will return to it.

No, we should learn from history, not try to judge by today's standards and erase it. 

Quote
I see no value to civilization by collecting taxes from concurred people, building pyramids and burying the valuables in the pyramids.  Where I see a benefit to civilization is when countries work together to maintain peace and freedoms, work together to combat disease, work together to prevent starvation, work together to create technical advancement.  Nun of this is benefited by slavery.  Slavery slows down civilization and keeps wealth flowing to a select few.  Exactly the goals of Mr Trump.

Slavery is not the issue.  Those societies refined engineering, wrote laws that our current societies still use, and advanced
 agricultural practices that fed the masses, just to name a few things.  They also conquered and had slaves.  Should they be erased because they had slave labor?

Countries do work together to do all the things you have listed.  Not all countries care to do those things or work with others.
  As for taxes, all taxes are confiscation of earnings.  It does not matter whether the people are conquered or simply allow it.

I am not sure what your comment about Trump is about.  If you want to clarify, I'll address it.

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6098
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2020, 06:29:52 pm »

I said the constitution was the law.  I did not say that it could not be changed.  Until it is changed, it is the law.

And it was changed and now a minority wants to change it back against the will of the people.

No one said anything about erasing history but in many cases we don't want to repeat it.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17497
  • Gender: Female
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2020, 09:34:55 pm »
Quote
And it was changed and now a minority wants to change it back against the will of the people.

First of all, a minority could not change it at all.  In what way does this minority want to "change it back"?

Quote
No one said anything about erasing history but in many cases we don't want to repeat it.

Very true.  All the more reason to allow history to be out there for all to see and judge for themselves.  If you hide it, or destroy it, there is no point of reference to encourage questioning.  There is a reason that countries like China tried to erase their history.  If there is no past, there is nothing to compare with the present. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6098
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2020, 08:51:29 am »
You can't change the past, you can't hide the past but you can certainly repeat it.  It would be nice if we could blot out the Trump presidency from our history books but I am afraid that can't happen.  All we can hope for is the repair of the damage knowing it will take a long time.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10070
  • Gender: Male
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2020, 11:33:57 am »
For a post as wild and far-fetched as that, I can only refer you to this.

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=54100.0

Be sure to put your big-girl panties on before reading it. Being the truth. rather than your fantasies, it  may scare you to death.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Kathyp

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17497
  • Gender: Female
Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2020, 03:08:24 pm »
Quote
All we can hope for is the repair of the damage knowing it will take a long time.

The damage done during the Trump presidency has been done by the left and by the bureaucracies that apparently serve the left.  The damage done by the Obama admin from both policies and his blessing of the attempt to take down Trump both before and after the election will take decades to overcome, if it ever can be overcome.

All that was done would have remained hidden if Hillary had been elected.  For that reason alone, we can thank whatever deity we thank, that she was not.

What Biden and his son were up to would have remained hidden.  The lies of the FBI would have remained hidden.

If that is the world you want, you are welcome to it.  I prefer to know when those I pay have gone off the rails and need a cleanup.




They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville