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Author Topic: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?  (Read 2159 times)

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2020, 11:49:30 am »
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There is two forms of power, money and the masses.  As long as the masses can offset the power of money a dictator will not come to power.  A written constitutions means nothing when power goes the other way.  It is not socialism that creates the dictator, it is money.  The Trump supporters point to his money.  Ironically he doesn't have any.
There is no dictator in power because of their socialistic views.  They are there because of money.

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There is two forms of power, money and the masses.

Those are two powers.  The law is designed to constrain both. The law, or the enforcement of the law, is a power.  The constitution is the law.  It is specifically designed to protect the people from masses, and those who would in other ways take the natural rights of the people.
Interesting to me is that the left (of both parties) are hot to give those natural rights to the government.  You invite the circumstances that lead to the loss of rights.

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A written constitution means nothing when power goes the other way.

Not if it is treated as law.  Only if it is treated as a "living document" subject to the whims of the current powers.  Thus the need for originalists on the court.

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There is no dictator in power because of their socialistic views.

This is demonstrably untrue.  They may have used their money to promote their views and facilitate taking power, but it is the views that led to the dictatorship.
Most of the founders of this country and subsequent leaders have been wealthy.  Wealth is not evil.  Wealth allows people to do things for good or evil.  Money is like weapons.  It does not jump off the table and do stuff by itself.






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They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online sawdstmakr

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2020, 02:10:26 pm »
As usual, that is a really good post. I totally agree.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2020, 08:50:27 am »
Quote from: Kathyp on October 14, 2020, 11:49:30 am
The law, or the enforcement of the law, is a power.
Always overridden by money.
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Most of the founders of this country and subsequent leaders have been wealthy.

And were bigots.
I find it so ironic that you Kathy would be a second class citizen, have no right to vote and be excluded from most parts of the military if the constitution (law in your words) did not have the ability to change.  Be careful for what you wish for.
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2020, 10:00:56 pm »
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The law, or the enforcement of the law, is a power.
Always overridden by money.
Quote
Most of the founders of this country and subsequent leaders have been wealthy.

And were bigots.
I find it so ironic that you Kathy would be a second class citizen, have no right to vote and be excluded from most parts of the military if the constitution (law in your words) did not have the ability to change.  Be careful for what you wish for.

I said the constitution was the law.  I did not say that it could not be changed.  Until it is changed, it is the law.

as for the founders being bigots, they were people of their times.  We can't just the past by the present.

 One of the things I enjoy when I go overseas is crawling around old ruins.  Many of those old ruins were built by people who conquered others and used slave labor.  By today's standards, they would be condemned.  By the standards of their times, they built great things and spread civiliaztion and law across a barbarian world.  Would we want the Roman, Greek, or Persian standards now?  No.  did we, and do we, benefit from what they did?  Yes.

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They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2020, 08:43:49 am »
Quote from: Kathyp on October 15, 2020, 10:00:56 pm
Until it is changed, it is the law.

as for the founders being bigots, they were people of their times.  We can't just the past by the present.

 One of the things I enjoy when I go overseas is crawling around old ruins.  Many of those old ruins were built by people who conquered others and used slave labor.  By today's standards, they would be condemned.  By the standards of their times, they built great things and spread civiliaztion and law across a barbarian world.  Would we want the Roman, Greek, or Persian standards now?  No.  did we, and do we, benefit from what they did?  Yes.

So how is it that a sitting president can get away with campaigning on the white house lawn?  How is it that he can use the presidency for his personal gain?  How is it that he can lie to the american people (the world for that matter)?  How is it that he can interfere in an investigation of himself?  How is it that he can ignore treaties with other countries?  By his own words he can break any law he so desires.  He has the money (another lie)
If we cannot judge the past by the present we surely will return to it.
I see no value to civilization by collecting taxes from concurred people, building pyramids and burying the valuables in the pyramids.  Where I see a benefit to civilization is when countries work together to maintain peace and freedoms, work together to combat disease, work together to prevent starvation, work together to create technical advancement.  Nun of this is benefited by slavery.  Slavery slows down civilization and keeps wealth flowing to a select few.  Exactly the goals of Mr Trump.
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2020, 12:13:37 pm »
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So how is it that a sitting president can get away with campaigning on the white house lawn?  How is it that he can use the presidency for his personal gain?  How is it that he can lie to the american people (the world for that matter)?  How is it that he can interfere in an investigation of himself?  How is it that he can ignore treaties with other countries?  By his own words he can break any law he so desires.  He has the money (another lie)

Lets assume that your portrayal of Trumps actions is accurate.  I don't have time to take them point by point.
Can you list which parts of the constitution/law he has broken? 


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If we cannot judge the past by the present we surely will return to it.

No, we should learn from history, not try to judge by today's standards and erase it. 

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I see no value to civilization by collecting taxes from concurred people, building pyramids and burying the valuables in the pyramids.  Where I see a benefit to civilization is when countries work together to maintain peace and freedoms, work together to combat disease, work together to prevent starvation, work together to create technical advancement.  Nun of this is benefited by slavery.  Slavery slows down civilization and keeps wealth flowing to a select few.  Exactly the goals of Mr Trump.

Slavery is not the issue.  Those societies refined engineering, wrote laws that our current societies still use, and advanced
 agricultural practices that fed the masses, just to name a few things.  They also conquered and had slaves.  Should they be erased because they had slave labor?

Countries do work together to do all the things you have listed.  Not all countries care to do those things or work with others.
  As for taxes, all taxes are confiscation of earnings.  It does not matter whether the people are conquered or simply allow it.

I am not sure what your comment about Trump is about.  If you want to clarify, I'll address it.

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They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2020, 06:29:52 pm »
Quote from: Kathyp on October 15, 2020, 10:00:56 pm

I said the constitution was the law.  I did not say that it could not be changed.  Until it is changed, it is the law.

And it was changed and now a minority wants to change it back against the will of the people.

No one said anything about erasing history but in many cases we don't want to repeat it.
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2020, 09:34:55 pm »
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And it was changed and now a minority wants to change it back against the will of the people.

First of all, a minority could not change it at all.  In what way does this minority want to "change it back"?

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No one said anything about erasing history but in many cases we don't want to repeat it.

Very true.  All the more reason to allow history to be out there for all to see and judge for themselves.  If you hide it, or destroy it, there is no point of reference to encourage questioning.  There is a reason that countries like China tried to erase their history.  If there is no past, there is nothing to compare with the present. 
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They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2020, 08:51:29 am »
You can't change the past, you can't hide the past but you can certainly repeat it.  It would be nice if we could blot out the Trump presidency from our history books but I am afraid that can't happen.  All we can hope for is the repair of the damage knowing it will take a long time.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2020, 11:33:57 am »
For a post as wild and far-fetched as that, I can only refer you to this.

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=54100.0

Be sure to put your big-girl panties on before reading it. Being the truth. rather than your fantasies, it  may scare you to death.
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2020, 03:08:24 pm »
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All we can hope for is the repair of the damage knowing it will take a long time.

The damage done during the Trump presidency has been done by the left and by the bureaucracies that apparently serve the left.  The damage done by the Obama admin from both policies and his blessing of the attempt to take down Trump both before and after the election will take decades to overcome, if it ever can be overcome.

All that was done would have remained hidden if Hillary had been elected.  For that reason alone, we can thank whatever deity we thank, that she was not.

What Biden and his son were up to would have remained hidden.  The lies of the FBI would have remained hidden.

If that is the world you want, you are welcome to it.  I prefer to know when those I pay have gone off the rails and need a cleanup.




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They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2020, 04:17:38 pm »
If a third party would ever stand a chance it would have been in 2016 when the two worst candidates in history ran.  Now one of those has been president for the past four years and has done remarkably well and has not started WWIII nor deported all the non-white people nor declared himself emperor as the left kept saying he would do.  Of course Biden is the third worst candidate in the history of the US.
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2020, 07:09:04 pm »
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Of course Biden is the third worst candidate in the history of the US.

IDK.  Kerry and McCain were both pretty bad.

I really didn't want Trump.  I had no faith in him at all, and only voted for him because he was not Hillary.  I don't feel that way this time around.  I still don't want to watch or listen to him, but I'll take more of the same policy-wise any day...for the most part.
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They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2020, 08:26:45 pm »
Quote from: Kathyp on November 02, 2020, 07:09:04 pm
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Of course Biden is the third worst candidate in the history of the US.

IDK.  Kerry and McCain were both pretty bad.

I really didn't want Trump.  I had no faith in him at all, and only voted for him because he was not Hillary.  I don't feel that way this time around.  I still don't want to watch or listen to him, but I'll take more of the same policy-wise any day...for the most part.

I kinda agree with you and Mr Bush Kathy. I have been accused of being a trump follower etc. ever since and even before his first term. Honest Ted was my choice, a champion of the Constitution so I perceived, (A clear tactic of the left and of socialism and communism is to shame folks from defending the only candidate, and now President, who "seems" to uphold our Constitution, Mr Trump.  It is not Mr Trump that I have defended so much as our Constitution through him. He seems to love our country and I really hope he does. If so, I owe him a deep debt of gratitude.  Mr Trump is the best chance for keeping our Constitution Intact by his personality of communication. If he really is a globalist, then SHAME on him. "Honest Joe" on the other hand, is pitiful in my opinion, a poor excuse for freedom, justice and the American way. I will take it a step further, maybe the second worst candidate for President in history, if not the very worse, lol.

I salute you my Fellow Americans no matter your heritage!
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2020, 08:50:06 am »
I think Trump has done more to solidify the power of the democratic party long into the future by not only dividing the "united" States but totally dividing the republican party.  It has got to be the first time in history that republicans are actively campaigning for a democrat on the bases that Trump is destroying republican principals.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2020, 09:04:46 am »
There are both rep. and dem. snakes and gators in the swamp, and yes, Trump is draining the swamp. Let's hope he gets 4 more years of trash out.
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Online van from Arkansas

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2020, 07:11:58 pm »
Socialism:

Question:  what do we do with the folks that refuse to work for a living and want govt. handouts?

Answer:  kick them out of Congress.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2020, 08:24:17 am »
Quote from: van from Arkansas on November 03, 2020, 07:11:58 pm
what do we do with the folks that refuse to work for a living and want govt. handouts?
I think the greater problem is government programs that prevent you from working to earn the hand out.  There is nothing worse then a hand out.
Take social security now that the Trump administration has classified it as an entitlement (hand out).  Most people who are getting it like it and don't feel it is a hand out because they worked for it all their lives.  There are many other social programs that most people like and would not want to be without.  I don't know why it is so difficult for government to help people in need without making it a free ride.  Maybe it is rooted in our religious beliefs of giving without expecting something in return.  IDK but I think government and religion should be kept separate.  We appear to be mixing the two together lately.  The separation of church and state is not so clear cut anymore.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2020, 11:22:30 am »
Show me in the constitution where it says there will be a complete and total separation of church and state. My understanding is the state will neither establish nor enforce a certain religion, nor condemn one. It does NOT say politicians and leaders cannot have a religious belief, nor does it say they cannot live it if they do have one. It definitely DOES NOT say a citizen must act against their religious beliefs just because some mis-born, deformed person desires it.
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Will there be something new in the way of Politics in the US?
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2020, 04:10:31 pm »
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IDK but I think government and religion should be kept separate.  We appear to be mixing the two together lately.  The separation of church and state is not so clear cut anymore.

Examples? (she asks as she bashes her head against the wall).

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They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville
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