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Author Topic: Normal after mite treatment?  (Read 353 times)

Offline spafmagic

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Normal after mite treatment?
« on: August 15, 2020, 02:57:41 pm »
Used mite away in my Kernersville hive... pic below. Normal?

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2020, 03:01:37 pm »
Used mite away in my Kernersville hive... pic below. Normal?


Is mite away a formic based treatment?
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline spafmagic

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2020, 03:06:12 pm »
It's formic acid... yes.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2020, 03:09:15 pm »
It's formic acid... yes.

That may be the problem. I do not know what that brand instructions say, but fromic needs to be used in cooler weather. Might check you present temperature and look again at the instructions to be sure?
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline spafmagic

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2020, 03:19:27 pm »
I'm within the temperature range suggested. Below 90 degrees for a week's time. My Jamestown Hive did something similar, but went back in after a day.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2020, 03:23:36 pm »
Whoops wrong topic. Moved  😁. Well I tried to move but to no avail.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline iddee

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2020, 03:32:22 pm »
I know nothing about mite away or formic, but that looks like a beautiful, healthy hive to me in the weather we have been having,
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2020, 04:10:46 pm »
A funny: I thought Kernersville was a type of hive I had never heard about,,, until I looked at your location.  I almost post and ask what is a Kernersville hive?  Well, a hive located in Kernersville.  Lol
Lots of bees bearding.

In my area, above 90F most days during late summer, Formic acid would kill my bees in this heat.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline spafmagic

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2020, 04:41:36 pm »
...I almost post and ask what is a Kernersville hive?  Well, a hive located in Kernersville.  Lol
LOL!

I know nothing about mite away or formic, but that looks like a beautiful, healthy hive to me in the weather we have been having,

Whatever my bees got into this summer that has been producing pinkish red honey, it definitely kept Mama laying.

Offline amymcg

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2020, 10:18:00 pm »
Definitely seems typical for formic. I thought MAQS labeling was below 85 degrees?


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Online TheHoneyPump

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2020, 10:40:52 pm »
Any fumigant type mite treatment ( formic, thymol ) will have this effect.  The bees fan excessively to to try to get the smell (contaminant) out of the hive.  The dose and intensity may cause many of them to give up fanning and just vacate the hive to get to fresh air.  The result is bearding as your pictures.  Is it normal for this type of treatment, yes.  Is it effective, well the bees that are hanging on the outside of the hive are not being treated, are they. How many bees are still in the hive vs those hanging outside?  ...   I am admittedly biased, I dislike formic - big time.  I still use it, but definitely by exception.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2020, 11:39:00 pm »
Mr HoneyPump you have every right to be bias as you have learned by doing as well as studying etc. I will not dispute nor challenge you wisdom as your thoughts are my learning. Even though many bees will vacate and fan as you pointed out and ask,"are these bees being treated?"
I do not know. That is a very good question.

We do know that the mites which are beneath the capped brood are being zapped which is a very good thing. Nipping those mites and their offspring beneath the capps in the bud. Hopefully the mites on the bees which have went outside to fan were also exposed to formic long enough to have taken care of the hitchhiker mites they may carry with them. If so then great. If not, what would be the results if a person were to do the formic flash, remove the formic carrier pad when done, come back immediately and OAV when the fanners are once again inside the hive?  Wouldn't this pretty much take care of the biggest part of mite problem concerning the carrier bees as well as mites beneath the brood?  The old one two punch so to speak.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Bushman

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2020, 12:57:04 pm »
I have had a thought brewing in my head concerning Formic acid and temperature control.

In your case do the bees go back in at night?  I would imagine so and then they would all receive treatment.

I am in the middle of my first ever Formic pro treatment (and first ever hive)  I noticed some initial casualties the first day.  Perhaps 25-50 dead bees and a few pupae on the landing board.  I was able to get out there three days in a row in the early AM to observe the landing board conditions.  No more dead or dying bees after the first day.  Seems as if everything is normal with the hive right now.  (day 6).

My question on the temp limits is when there is brood present in the hive the temps have to be regulated by the nurse bees to 90+/- degrees F?
Does that "activate" the acid even more?  On the contrary if it was cooler the bees would warm up the hive.  Over 90 the bees would cool the hive?

I know there has been a ton of research on this especially by the manufacturer of the Formic Pro.

I'm more curious on others thoughts.  It is supposed to be cool here tonight down in the 40's.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2020, 11:42:23 pm »
>My question on the temp limits is when there is brood present in the hive the temps have to be regulated by the nurse bees to 90+/- degrees F?
Does that "activate" the acid even more?  On the contrary if it was cooler the bees would warm up the hive.

Good question, I am going to try and answer your question on an assumption theory, which may be wrong but if it is wrong I feel sure our scientist friends The15Member and Van From Arkansas will correct us. (I have not had you question answered or explained to me). I do know the temperature limits on the use of formic is 10C to 30 C.  Thirty is roughly 86f which is four degrees lower than your 90f. If you can visualize this through your minds eye, formic fumes are heavy from what I understand and go down, (drop) and slowly escape through the reduced entrance set up for this treatment at the bottom entrance.

This is my theory (Using the example of formic flash treatment):
Being the outside temperature is lower (86f), than the 90f as you posted of the inside hive, the heavy fumes are safely released from the bottom reduced entrance at the just the right volume and just the correct rate (timing), as set up per usage as calculated for the day used. (Again I am assuming and may be assuming incorrectly. I do not have facts to back up this
theory, and do not know where to find the facts). If this theory is correct, then anything above 90f outside of the hive is close to the range of the temperature on the inside of the hive.  Therefore my theory is formic fumes inside the hive will have more trouble escaping at a safe level being the warmer outside air is rising and perhaps "cuts off the escape at the correct rate", of the inside formic gases, to a certain unsatisfactory extent? (The warmer outside air rising) is kind of like an invisible gate if you will.  I can not think of any other explanation.

I do know it is important when using formic flash treatment that the calculations must be mathematically correct to be used safely. Example 65% formic flash needs, (is always the magic number 40). If the temperature is 25C, (77f) then the amount of formic flash will be 15 ml of 65% formic per box. Treatment time is 5-6 hours.




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« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 12:34:36 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Normal after mite treatment?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2020, 02:01:52 pm »
I have had a thought brewing in my head concerning Formic acid and temperature control.

In your case do the bees go back in at night?  I would imagine so and then they would all receive treatment.

I am in the middle of my first ever Formic pro treatment (and first ever hive)  I noticed some initial casualties the first day.  Perhaps 25-50 dead bees and a few pupae on the landing board.  I was able to get out there three days in a row in the early AM to observe the landing board conditions.  No more dead or dying bees after the first day.  Seems as if everything is normal with the hive right now.  (day 6).

My question on the temp limits is when there is brood present in the hive the temps have to be regulated by the nurse bees to 90+/- degrees F?
Does that "activate" the acid even more?  On the contrary if it was cooler the bees would warm up the hive.  Over 90 the bees would cool the hive?

I know there has been a ton of research on this especially by the manufacturer of the Formic Pro.

I'm more curious on others thoughts.  It is supposed to be cool here tonight down in the 40's.
If there is brood in the hive the bees keep the temperature at about 95 degrees F (93-97 F is considered normal), so I'd imagine FormicPro is designed to work well at that temp in the hive.  I think the outside temperatures being around brood nest temperature is a concern because the bees may have trouble regulating the temperature.  The temperature will definitely affect the rate at which the FormicPro is released from the patty. 


This is my theory (Using the example of formic flash treatment):
Being the outside temperature is lower (86f), than the 90f as you posted of the inside hive, the heavy fumes are safely released from the bottom reduced entrance at the just the right volume and just the correct rate (timing), as set up per usage as calculated for the day used. (Again I am assuming and may be assuming incorrectly. I do not have facts to back up this
theory, and do not know where to find the facts). If this theory is correct, then anything above 90f outside of the hive is close to the range of the temperature on the inside of the hive.  Therefore my theory is formic fumes inside the hive will have more trouble escaping at a safe level being the warmer outside air is rising and perhaps "cuts off the escape at the correct rate", of the inside formic gases, to a certain unsatisfactory extent? (The warmer outside air rising) is kind of like an invisible gate if you will.  I can not think of any other explanation.
                                                                                                                                                                             .
 
I like how you are thinking, Phillip, but I question whether the outside air blocking the release of fumes is the issue, since the bees will also be fanning to remove the gases thereby breaking down the "invisible gate".  I think the differences in acceptable temps lie in using almost pure formic acid vs. the proprietary mixture that the folks at NOD Apiaries (FormicPro's parent company) have come up with.  I think it needs to be a certain minimum temperature outside so the bees are not clustered and so the vapors are active enough to circulate throughout the hive.  For FormicPro the temp outside needs to not be higher than the brood nest, or the bees may have trouble regulating the temp, and therefore the speed of the fumes release.  The question I still have is, why is the outside temperature requirement for the formic flash treatment so much lower than brood nest temp, since the flash treatment doesn't take but several hours and a slow release isn't part of the goal?         
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