Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos

[Ben Framed]

Well, just to throw my two cents in....

In my opinion TF qualifies as a natural and organic method.

Welcome!


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I agree, as natural as you can get. How can anyone think any differently?




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[Bob Wilson]

Van,
Since swarming can reduce mites and mites are worse in late summer, then perhaps I should ...
1. Build a big spring population.
2. Pack in honey during April-May-early June.
3. Split or induce swarming in late June/July to reduce the mite load. However, June-August are our hot, dearth months.

[BeeMaster2]

Bob,
If you are going to split in June/July then you will need to make strong splits. That is full brood boxes and you will need to leave honey or feed. You could also make packed Nuc boxes and keep them nucs through winter. Just put two nucs side by side to share heat.
Jim Altmiller

[charentejohn]

As part of something else I am looking at for my hives the future regarding what I can do and survival in winter Scot mentioned (on a different forum) someting I hadn't considered.  Not sure where this goes but as brood breaks when and why were mentioned tis may be a good place.
He pointed out that left to their own devices the bees may become 'honey bound' and that people try to avoid this, easier if I paste his reply below, this was related to my asking when the winter cluster bees start to be created hence the seemingly unrelated Temp flow dearth bit.

Temp, Flow vs Dearth, origin of queen as you noted (local only thank you). But also and this is one that I think is lost on many beekeepers since they manage the bees to prevent it, but the brood nest getting honey bound. This is something that occurs in nature that beekeeper avoid at all costs. Being honey bound at the right times of the year is part of a colony lifecycle, stops brood rearing at key times (just as the flows are ending and dearths are beginning), and once the colony is honey bound, the bees start eating the honey which slowly makes room for the queen to begin laying again. I think this should happen at least once during the spring flow, and once during the fall flow to totally shut down the brood for a couple weeks. Yes it needs to be managed so the bees swarm when you want them to and don't swarm when you don't want them to, but I still think it's important for the bees' health to happen.

[Bob Wilson]

Sawdstmakr,
That gives me something to think about. The gears in my brain are chugging along.

[William Bagwell]

What is the thermal system as I have only seen the expensive boxes people put brood frames in to heat them up.  Also read they are still trying to determine if the heat affects brood health long term but as ever inconclusive.

Sorry, got busy... The MMK is a heater sandwiched between aluminum plates which slides in the bottom of the hive. Control box and remote temperature senser then heats the hive to 106 degrees F. Went with it rather than the slightly cheaper Victor since it seems to be a more mature product with a larger user base. They have their own forum which is unfortunately on Facebook

Works by killing mites in capped brood and sterilizing phoretic mites that get exposed to at least 102 degrees. Naturally field  bees which miss the treatment will still have viable mites.

Slow, at three hours per treatment. Expensive but no where near as expensive as Thermosolar. And currently unavailable... Anticipated the supply chain issues and bought mine back in February before I even had bees

[Ben Framed]

charentejohn you and Bob might find this interesting.


Google
Treatment-free beekeeping | No Pesticides | Clean Honey | Bee ...
beedelightful.com/learn-more/treatment-fee...

[charentejohn]

Ben, looked and lots of stuff on there, anything you like in particular.

William, haven't seen the heaters.  Not sure on the process as no real info but heating the whole hive seems like it may be a problem ?  Brood is maintained by the bees at 32-35c whereas 106f is 41C so I have a feeling the bees will just work to reduce brood temp, unless air flow is restricted in the process ? 

Ironically we have had massive heat here (well is for me) at 40c and a thermometer by the bees showed max of 40 and regularly 35-38c.   My concern was internal heating, I know they can handle it as if it rises above normal they will reduce it, but costs in energy wasted.
Rooting around I found something that said phoretic Varroa die at 46c and they considered that bees may go to a hotter part of the hive to kill them off.  I was concerned that my hives, in the shade but some people have them in full sun, would reach more than that.  The idea was bees would seek out the hot part for 90mins to kill the varroa.  Possible but not convinced as if bees knew the varroa was there they would try to remove it.

Interesting all round though as african countries have less of a problem and hives will be very hot.  I found an aricle on Ethiopian bees, search for 'The most interesting observation in the present study' in the document in the Discussion section. Idea is they may suppress breeding in the varroa, maybe ours can too if not disrupted ? https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0223236 
I like them because they say looks promising but need work, goo attitude 

[Ben Framed]

> Not sure on the process as no real info but heating the whole hive seems like it may be a problem ?

I do not know a lot about it but I did watch a video a year or so ago by Bruce bees 🐝 if I remember correctly. It was interesting. Later I will try and find it for you.

Bruce is in Alabama

[Ben Framed]

> Not sure on the process as no real info but heating the whole hive seems like it may be a problem ?

I do not know a lot about it but I did watch a video a year or so ago by Bruce bees 🐝 if I remember correctly. It was interesting. Later I will try and find it for you.

Bruce is in Alabama

I was mistaken, it was Woolie Bees Apiary  (Sorry Woolie)

https://youtu.be/6x3-WO4nQo0

[charentejohn]

Scary, at least 3 months ago he said in reply to the question from a viewer, did it work ?  No killed all the brood would not use again.
Basically the bees try to keep the brood at 32c so I guess the relentless heat (normally they could cool using water and fanning) meant they failed and the brood died.
There is info online about brood damage from high heat, as ever not obvious immediately.   

If they wanted to kill the varroa in the brood they could just have removed the frame (see shook swarm post) same result less stress but really needed ?
I have to say for me any such intervention is just confusing them.  The bees control temperature and I never understood internal winter heaters either. I trust their judgement, shame they aren't able to expalin their plan 

 

[Ben Framed]

Scary, at least 3 months ago he said in reply to the question from a viewer, did it work ?  No killed all the brood would not use again.
Basically the bees try to keep the brood at 32c so I guess the relentless heat (normally they could cool using water and fanning) meant they failed and the brood died.
There is info online about brood damage from high heat, as ever not obvious immediately.   

If they wanted to kill the varroa in the brood they could just have removed the frame (see shook swarm post) same result less stress but really needed ?
I have to say for me any such intervention is just confusing them.  The bees control temperature and I never understood internal winter heaters either. I trust their judgement, shame they aren't able to expalin their plan 

 

Well that is a bummer! Hopefully William Bagwell will be more careful and have better results? 


In case you missed it, I posted a new topic yesterday titled  ''A Treat for No Treaters''  under this same heading, (NATURAL & ORGANIC BEEKEEPING METHODS). I had you and Bob Wilson in mind when I posted it. The publisher, gets down to the nuts and bolts deeper into the video. Well worth a non-treaters time.

[charentejohn]

Ben, did see that and have been looking for a couple of related things. 
I actually see mechanical, like heating, things as ot helping.  Cooking varroa in the cells is a little nuts and helps the bees not at all.  They still have to cope with future varroa or will they get a roasting for the rest of  their lives. 
The more I dig the more I can see they have many ways to control varroa if not distracted.   

[William Bagwell]

Well that is a bummer! Hopefully William Bagwell will be more careful and have better results? 

Just watched the video. Less than ideal test: Very first treatment with inadequate instructions plus he made at least one mistake in placing the sensor too high. Mentions in the comments that he only received a half page of instructions, mine came with three pages and I am aware they have been updated slightly since February.

Apparently also failed to remove the closure stick at the correct time. So yes his hive had a set back. Parts of it went above the set temperature resulting in a total brood break instead of just the infected.

[Ben Framed]

I posted this in another section but thought the quote may lend to this topic also as food for thought.



Quote  Ben Framed from August !8,2020 Topic: Well... crap.... Reply 13
I for one, know little about Mite Away. I have studied formic flash but I have not tried it. A fellow from Germany taught me while using formic flash, the art is mathematics. For example He ( and others) tell me the treating range is 10 to 30 Celsius.  I have not tried it as of yet, but in the south where I live, humidity is usually VERY HIGH. I would not follow that recommend high temp of 30c /86f. Just my opinion.

Formic, from what I understand is a tricky avenue, but when mastered, (also from what I understand) is an excellent organic avenue. Ridding the colony of mites both non-capped as well as caped brood.

As far as mathematics I will give an example of what I was taught. For formic flash formula; 40, minus temperature equals ml of 65 percent formic added per box. Translated. 22C / 76f: 40 - 22 equals 18. 18ml will be the amount of 65 percent formic set for each box (that day). The entrance must be reduced and no open screen bottoms.

I am not recommending something I have not tried or proven MYSELF and have proved by my very own example, PROVED to be SUCCESSFUl. Be it formic, or even treatment free, or anything else that I have not proven personally.

I, as Mr Van, use the organic Oxalic and can, from experience, recommend it. Even oxalic has to be used correctly and timing is a VERY important factor because it WILL NOT effect mites protected inside of capped brood.

I am thinking this is where many OA users miss the boat. They treat, say in August. (one or two times). Them again in December (as a timeline accepted by many experts in America month wise), yet still may lose hives to varroa destructor. Leaving them scratching there head in wondering, (Why did this hive die of mites? I treated!)  For this very reason some professional beekeepers use Apivar strips in August. No danger as formic with risk of abscond yet effective. And no troubles associated with formic such as Queen loss.

Food for thought.





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[Ben Framed]

Well that is a bummer! Hopefully William Bagwell will be more careful and have better results? 

Just watched the video. Less than ideal test: Very first treatment with inadequate instructions plus he made at least one mistake in placing the sensor too high. Mentions in the comments that he only received a half page of instructions, mine came with three pages and I am aware they have been updated slightly since February.

Apparently also failed to remove the closure stick at the correct time. So yes his hive had a set back. Parts of it went above the set temperature resulting in a total brood break instead of just the infected.

William I noticed this also and is the reason I suggested you may be more successful in your use. I clearly could see the room for improvement as well as following directions.

I did not read the comments but can clearly see where and why they failed. How are things progressing for you?

[Ben Framed]

Well that is a bummer! Hopefully William Bagwell will be more careful and have better results?

In case you missed it, I posted a new topic yesterday titled  ''A Treat for No Treaters''  under this same heading, (NATURAL & ORGANIC BEEKEEPING METHODS). I had you and Bob Wilson in mind when I posted it. The publisher, gets down to the nuts and bolts deeper into the video. Well worth a non-treaters time.
 

Ben, did see that and have been looking for a couple of related things. 
I actually see mechanical, like heating, things as ot helping.  Cooking varroa in the cells is a little nuts and helps the bees not at all.  They still have to cope with future varroa or will they get a roasting for the rest of  their lives. 
The more I dig the more I can see they have many ways to control varroa if not distracted.

Glad you took a look, I am wondering if you and I are once again in miscommunication.   lol:
Let me ask seeking to be clear. Did you look at the new topic ''A Treat for No Treaters'' under this same Heading, (NATURAL & ORGANIC BEEKEEPING METHODS)?

Actually Richard Noel the video maker, was not speaking of mechanical or heating. He was speaking of a network of researching beekeepers who have joined forces from all over the world, sharing up to the minute information and notes of success and failures of their efforts in developing a TF bee. This a very modern and intensive approach with very intelligent keepers sharing not only information, but bees themselves as breeding stock in the cooperative effort to develop a bee with the desired trait in a TF (bloodline), if you will,  which will resist varroa destructor. A very honorable cause, well worth noting in my humble opinion.



                                                                                                                                                                               

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[William Bagwell]

William I noticed this also and is the reason I suggested you may be more successful in your use. I clearly could see the room for improvement as well as following directions.

I did not read the comments but can clearly see where and why they failed. How are things progressing for you?

Kind of wish I had caught a big swarm of bright yellow Italians with a marked queen. Then I would have the perfect excuse to try my MMK.

Actually need to watch the video a second time and pay more attention to the video and less to the comments.

Up to seven hives at the moment, was briefly at eight. Started in March with a nuc from a successful TF beek. Moved it to a ten frame the day I got it. At two weeks did an inspection and added a medium. Thirteen days later they swarmed! Thought I had all the time in the world but had missed queen cups. Knew there were no cells and afterwards found the cups in the photos taken that day. Caught the swarm BTW and it is going strong. Also made a split which is still doing good. Origional is now a dead out. Between a swarm, split and at least one small after swarm it had too much room for the number of bees...

Little over a month ago bought out someone who is moving out of state. (Also a TF beek) Six hives, five with bees. Four are caught swarms one has a VSH queen. Mishmash of equipment so I now have a Warre, two top bars and two more langs to go with the two I already had. (hive & nuc each) The one empty hive is a cathedral style.

So basically have been busy!  Monitoring the mite drop on the ones I can and not seeing anything alarming.

[Ben Framed]

William you are on the ball making steady forward progress!  Keep up the good work and let us know how your thermal treatment is delivering, as you use and learn more, please.