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Author Topic: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos  (Read 744 times)

Offline charentejohn

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Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« on: August 10, 2020, 07:05:48 am »
Well I think it is anyway.  My first post here and nice to find somewhere with a TF section where I hope we can all just get along, also a Warre section  :happy:
I have a couple of other questions but better in another section.  So I just thought you may like this guy, he started and ran a TF apiary 35yrs ago, so not a new starter with wild ideas.  Having moved cross country (USA) he is setting up again and documenting it.  He has a direct style, also for anyone going commercial TF he may be of interest, I only have 2 hives so industrial side not for me. 

Nice mite bomb presentation -    

Why can't we get along, basically it would be nice if new TF keepers (like me) could talk to treating keepers.  As he points out many new TF keepers have failures due to inexperience not lack of chemicals.  Would be nice if clubs and such would allow them to join and help them while allowing for their views.  As Nelson Mandela said-If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner.
 
You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2020, 10:32:30 pm »
This is a Natural and Organic section. Not strictly a TF section. But welcome!  :grin:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline William Bagwell

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 11:02:20 pm »
This is a Natural and Organic section. Not strictly a TF section. But welcome!  :grin:

Ah, so mentioning having an MMK thermal as a back up while trying to become TF will not get bricks thrown at me? Seems to every where else :cry:

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 11:40:41 pm »
Ah, so mentioning having an MMK thermal as a back up while trying to become TF will not get bricks thrown at me? Seems to every where else :cry:
You will find there are very few if any brick throwers on Beemaster.  :beemaster:
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 11:52:52 pm »
Well I think it is anyway.  My first post here and nice to find somewhere with a TF section where I hope we can all just get along, also a Warre section  :happy:


This is a Natural and Organic section. Not strictly a TF section. But welcome!  :grin:

Ah, so mentioning having an MMK thermal as a back up while trying to become TF will not get bricks thrown at me? Seems to every where else :cry:

Wow William, Is it really that bad at other Forums? Relax and welcome to beemaster..   :grin:



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« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 12:12:47 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline William Bagwell

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2020, 07:50:32 am »

Wow William, Is it really that bad at other Forums? Relax and welcome to beemaster..   :grin:

Not on the ones I post to but there are inconsistencies in they way thermal is tolerated verses the organic acids. Those have been around much longer and are accepted as a necessary evil. Mention thermal and someone will always pipe up and remind you that it is in fact a treatment. Duh. Knew that before I spent my money.

For me, true chemical free is an achievable goal even for a newbie. Total TF is much harder but an even more important long term goal. Believe thermal is the current best 'crutch' to get there for those lacking the finances to go full bond. Now if I had Bill Gates money I could hire Michael Bush to set me up a 1,000 hive yard and give it a try :wink:

Not even fired mine up yet and could not treat every hive if I did. Only have a single ten frame unit so the two nucs would be very difficult to treat with it. Also have two top bars and a Warre (recently bought from someone moving out of state) that are impossible. Even if I had a narrow five frame unit the top bars would require extensive modification. BTW production of MMK is currently on hold due to supply chain issues and once it resumes only eights and tens will be produced. No new fives for a long time.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2020, 04:25:26 pm »

Wow William, Is it really that bad at other Forums? Relax and welcome to beemaster..   :grin:

Not on the ones I post to but there are inconsistencies in they way thermal is tolerated verses the organic acids. Those have been around much longer and are accepted as a necessary evil. Mention thermal and someone will always pipe up and remind you that it is in fact a treatment. Duh. Knew that before I spent my money.

For me, true chemical free is an achievable goal even for a newbie. Total TF is much harder but an even more important long term goal. Believe thermal is the current best 'crutch' to get there for those lacking the finances to go full bond. Now if I had Bill Gates money I could hire Michael Bush to set me up a 1,000 hive yard and give it a try :wink:

Not even fired mine up yet and could not treat every hive if I did. Only have a single ten frame unit so the two nucs would be very difficult to treat with it. Also have two top bars and a Warre (recently bought from someone moving out of state) that are impossible. Even if I had a narrow five frame unit the top bars would require extensive modification. BTW production of MMK is currently on hold due to supply chain issues and once it resumes only eights and tens will be produced. No new fives for a long time.

Thanks William, Mr Bush is a nice fellow, he will help you with advice freely! 😬 I would think a beekeeper would be open minded to the possibility of organic treatments as you mentioned. I suppose some are not, even though Organic is a powerful word!😬Pesticide free!

You mentioned organic and that has to be a good thing as opposed to the choice of losing a hive or in extreme cases, many hives to mites whether by direct kill or by the killing of the viruses they carry. I, like you, like the idea of thermal. What can possibly be more natural than that as an aid to helping our bees?  Mr Live Oak, whom I have great respect, has talked of thermal here. His drawback was, if I remember correctly, is time of treatment. I made some suggestions to him as to how make it more productive. I have not heard back from him on this, but I really think my theory was a good plan for a person that is interested in going that route. I suppose that has been at least a year ago.

I do not think folks will bash you here for you idea of your good method (thermal), at least they should not in my opinion.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline charentejohn

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2020, 07:25:30 pm »
I did think TF was a natural as you can get, must have misunderstood.  Organic is abit more wide ranging.
Nothing will ever be interference free but I will try to be as hands off as I can.
I think (not sure) Scot's view, not being a 'bee hugger' like myself, is that babying them is just wasting time and money commercially as if you replace failed ones they will sort themselves out. You have to cost in the chemicals and the amount of time spent inspecting and treating, especially in a large operation as they can obviosly function without any of that.   

What is the thermal system as I have only seen the expensive boxes people put brood frames in to heat them up.  Also read they are still trying to determine if the heat affects brood health long term but as ever inconclusive.
You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2020, 11:12:29 pm »
"I did think TF was a natural as you can get, must have misunderstood." 


Yes, you must have misunderstood. TF is as natural as you can get. I am all for you and TF if this is you desire.
As I said before, this is not just a treatment free heading alone.

NATURAL & ORGANIC BEEKEEPING METHODS
methods being plural. 

As I said to William,
"I, like you, like the idea of thermal. What can possibly be more natural than that as an aid to helping our bees? "
The question is how effective is thermal? I do not know.


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« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 02:43:45 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline charentejohn

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2020, 09:20:48 am »
I think I see where all the posts saying this is not a TF section came from, wondered why the cosntant references, because I said good to find a TF section.
I think a lot was read into that but I suppose I should have said section where I can discuss TF as an option.  Not many places you can do that as the full on treatment people tend to chip in a lot.  Just good to be able to discuss outcomes and options of TF and have people just say what they do or prefer rather than saying it is wrong stop it now.

I will make sure to be clearer in future.
You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2020, 09:43:27 am »
John,
Welcome to Beemaster.
To my way of thinking, you posted this in the correct section because your video is supporting natural beekeeping.
I enjoyed the video. Thanks.
By the way, if you or anyone else ever feels they are being attacked, just PM me. We do not allow it here.
I have been on a lot of sites that that seems to be the norm. That is why I?m only on BeeMaster now.
Jim Altmiller

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2020, 10:10:11 am »
(I think I see where all the posts saying this is not a TF section came from)

I hope so but to be clear, I made the reference twice. The first time because of you claim that this is a TF section, and to point out it is not a solely a TF section.  I went on to welcomed you and your views in post 1.
The second reference came directly from your statement (I did think TF was a natural as you can get, must have misunderstood.)

Seemed a little sarcastic to me as well as intolerant. Perhaps you can be a little clearer about that statement in the present?   No one here has insulted you. No one here has made you feel unwelcome. No one here has tried to sway your thinking, or force their thoughts on you or argue with you in any way.? We can not help how your views wee accepted or not accepted at other places. Yet you start out with theses negotiates. Why?

Once again, Your thoughts and views are welcome. I hope you can say the same about others here whose thoughts and views that may be different from your own.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 12:59:18 pm by sawdstmakr »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2020, 03:10:11 pm »
(I think I see where all the posts saying this is not a TF section came from)

I hope so but to be clear, I made the reference twice. The first time because of you claim that this is a TF section, and to point out it is not a solely a TF section.  I went on to welcomed you and your views in post 1.
The second reference came directly from your statement (I did think TF was a natural as you can get, must have misunderstood.)

Seemed a little sarcastic to me as well as intolerant. Perhaps you can be a little clearer about that statement in the present?   No one here has insulted you. No one here has made you feel unwelcome. No one here has tried to sway your thinking, or force their thoughts on you or argue with you in any way.? We can not help how your views wee accepted or not accepted at other places. Yet you start out with theses negotiates. Why?

Once again, Your thoughts and views are welcome. I hope you can say the same about others here whose thoughts and views that may be different from your own.

Thanks Jim grammar correction as follows.

"I think I see where all the posts saying this is not a TF section came from"

I hope so but to be clear, I made the reference twice. The first time because of your claim that this is a TF section, and to point out it is not solely a TF section.  I went on and welcomed you and your views in post 1.
The second reference came directly from your statement (I did think TF was a natural as you can get, must have misunderstood.)

Seemed a little sarcastic to me as well as intolerant. Perhaps you can be a little clearer about that statement in the present? No one here has insulted you. No one here has made you feel unwelcome. No one here has tried to sway your thinking, or force their thoughts on you or argue with you in any way. We can not help how your views were accepted or not accepted at other places. Yet you start out with theses negotiates. Why?

Once again, Your thoughts and views are welcome. I hope you can say the same about others here, whose thoughts and views might be different from your own?



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« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 03:23:54 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline charentejohn

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2020, 07:15:26 am »
Ben, please take it easy.  Not sarcastic, not intolerant and I am not offended or insulted by anything.
My statemesnt was done the best way I knew.  TF is a natural way of keeping, and I think it is the most natural (as regards chemicals) as it advocates nothing.
I misuderstood natural vs TF definitions and tried to explain why.  So please don't do this as all is well, I made a mistake tried to explain it and expressed a view that I though TF was very natural, I still do.  I can see you were offended by the double post of your reply but whatever you saw in my post was not meant to offend so all friends again ?

Thinking of Natural / TF definitions did make me consider Scot's system of keeping mimics the wild as far as it can.  His videos are here https://www.facebook.com/groups/BeekeepingFromScratch/ 
Basically letting them die out and replacing with splits mimics bee life, some wild hives die out and are occupied by swarms from others, one of his videos explains how he does this.  He does no other treatments as far as I know, no drone culling etc.  It is an interesting concept that someone can do this commercially, and always has done.  Again a great explanation of letting them live a natural life in a commercial operation.  I am not commercial but will try to use my bees to create two 'wild' hives as a hedge against mine dying out sometime.  As he points out you never know when you may need them.   
That video is here  
I am just a 'bee hugger' with only two Warres for now so the commercial side is not for me but I do like his direct and informative style.       
You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2020, 08:57:22 am »
Perhaps I am a little foolish to consider myself treatment free. After all, I am only in my second year. I cannot say that I am able to maintain an apiary long term without treatment yet. But that is where I am trying to go. I have not treated for mites yet, and intend not to. I know there are beeks on the forum who do not treat and are making it. Eventually I hope to join their rank of success in that endeavor. I may well fail. We shall see. But if I do fail, it will not be for lack of sound advice from this diverse and supportive forum

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2020, 09:53:55 am »
Ben, please take it easy.  Not sarcastic, not intolerant and I am not offended or insulted by anything.
My statemesnt was done the best way I knew.  TF is a natural way of keeping, and I think it is the most natural (as regards chemicals) as it advocates nothing.
I misuderstood natural vs TF definitions and tried to explain why.  So please don't do this as all is well, I made a mistake tried to explain it and expressed a view that I though TF was very natural, I still do.  I can see you were offended by the double post of your reply but whatever you saw in my post was not meant to offend so all friends again ?

Thinking of Natural / TF definitions did make me consider Scot's system of keeping mimics the wild as far as it can.  His videos are here https://www.facebook.com/groups/BeekeepingFromScratch/ 
Basically letting them die out and replacing with splits mimics bee life, some wild hives die out and are occupied by swarms from others, one of his videos explains how he does this.  He does no other treatments as far as I know, no drone culling etc.  It is an interesting concept that someone can do this commercially, and always has done.  Again a great explanation of letting them live a natural life in a commercial operation.  I am not commercial but will try to use my bees to create two 'wild' hives as a hedge against mine dying out sometime.  As he points out you never know when you may need them.   
       



>"Ben, please take it easy.

I did not take it hard but at face value, wanting to be clear, I ask you to explain.  Thanks for you explanation.

> "I can see you were offended by the double post of your reply but whatever you saw in my post"

Wrong : I assume your are referring to reply 11 and 12.  The double post was because Jim The Administrator edited my first post. (11). If you will read the bottom of reply 11 you will see it clearly. I had some grammar that needed to be corrected in post 11. I clearly explained this If you would have read closely. I did not want to, or felt it proper, to edit or change what the Administrator had handled. Therefore I corrected the grammar without interfering with the moderator by reposting 12 as I explained at the very beginning of 12 . Never considering more misunderstanding.

Just to once again be clear, I was not, and am not offended by your previous post toward me either. Very puzzled? Yes...  .... Wishing you the best in your bees.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2020, 01:33:47 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2020, 10:09:49 am »
Perhaps I am a little foolish to consider myself treatment free. After all, I am only in my second year. I cannot say that I am able to maintain an apiary long term without treatment yet. But that is where I am trying to go. I have not treated for mites yet, and intend not to. I know there are beeks on the forum who do not treat and are making it. Eventually I hope to join their rank of success in that endeavor. I may well fail. We shall see. But if I do fail, it will not be for lack of sound advice from this diverse and supportive forum

"I know there are beeks on the forum who do not treat and are making it."

Yes Cao if a great example Bob. He now has many hives. Not only is he making it, he is expanding. This decision is strictly for each individual to consider and make a decision for themselves. Wishing you the best.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2020, 12:08:45 pm »
Perhaps I am a little foolish to consider myself treatment free. After all, I am only in my second year. I cannot say that I am able to maintain an apiary long term without treatment yet. But that is where I am trying to go. I have not treated for mites yet, and intend not to. I know there are beeks on the forum who do not treat and are making it. Eventually I hope to join their rank of success in that endeavor. I may well fail. We shall see. But if I do fail, it will not be for lack of sound advice from this diverse and supportive forum

Mr. Bob, splitting or letting hives naturally swarm are excellent tools to reduce mite loads.  A hive is deprived of capped brood for about 3 weeks when a swarm occurs.  We know mites change their physiology when capped brood is absent.  This change in physiology occurs again when brood is about to be capped but it takes the mites time to adjust to reproduction mode.  All the while 1-2 percent of mites are eliminated daily.  Mite drop by bees grooming, mites are carried off into the field, all said about 1-2 percent reduction of mites takes place naturally after a swarm occurs and there is no capped brood for mite reproduction.  Also mites are carried of by the swarm itself.

So natural swarming is an excellent was to reduce mite loads.  Recap:

1.  Natural mite drop 1-2 percent per day
     A.  Without capped brood the mites attach you the bees, some bees with mites attached leave the hive never to return.
     B.  Again, bees leave the hive with mites and mites just fall of the bees.
2.  Natural grooming causes the mites to fall off the bees.
3.  A change in mite reproduction physiology takes place if no capped brood is present.  When brood is available, this upgrade in reproduction physiology takes time.
4.  No capped brood for 3 weeks after a swarm.  Mites cannot reproduce without capped brood.

So swarming by bees is an excellent, natural method for reducing mite load in a hive.  Splitting a hive produces similar results if the split is to raise its own queens, again causing a period with absence of capped brood.

Mites double every 3 weeks in a hive with capped brood.  A critical point of about 7.8 mites per hundred bees, rounded to 8 percent is the critical point for Spring hive collapse.  Any mite level above 8 percent during warm months is cause for collapse in the future.

Mites above 8 percent will double to 16 percent in 3 weeks, 32 percent in 6 weeks, 64 percent in 9 weeks.  By 12 weeks the mites easily collapse the hive at 128 percent, more mites than bees.  However the hive actually collapses before the 128 percent is reached.

Same scenario with 1 percent mite rate:

Starting with one percent mite per hundred bees; remember mites double every 3 weeks.
3 weeks later, 2 percent
6 weeks later, 4 percent
9 weeks later, 8 percent
12 weeks later, 16 percent mite level compared to 128 percent.  That is a lot difference.

So Mr. Bob, if a hive swarms and subsequent mite load is reduced below critical points the hive can prosper.  I admire the goal to be treatment free.  You got my support.

Cheers
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 09:21:42 pm by van from Arkansas »
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

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Re: Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2020, 12:55:14 pm »
Good post Mr Van, very well laid out.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline amymcg

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Mite Bomb / co-operation well presented videos
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2020, 01:58:38 pm »
Well, just to throw my two cents in....

In my opinion TF qualifies as a natural and organic method.

Welcome!


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