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Author Topic: Covid 19 Isolation  (Read 1218 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2020, 08:05:18 am »
>Tell me, Ace, does the mask protect the wearer or the people around them?

The pulmonologist I spoke to says the masks do nothing at all.  They protect no one.

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/08/07/sciadv.abd3083

It would be grand if supported water droplets was the only way it traveled. Unfortunately that is not the case.


Yes it can be and is spread by those droplets 💧 BUT a greater concern, it is also spread through the air, simply by breathing. SMALLER aerosol particles. Particles so microscopic that a cotton mask can not contain.
This is why one researcher said. Trying to stop the spread with cotton mask is like trying to stop a misquote from flying through a chain link fence. This virus is this small. This virus can linger in the air for long extended periods of time, floating around for hours. Traveling through A/C system etc. I suppose it is hard for some to fathom the size of this virus? Someone ask me; (If this virus could not be contained in a level 4 research center in Wuhan China do you really think your flower power mask can stop the spread). Mr Bush may be right.  ?

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/07/06/887919633/aerosols-droplets-fomites-what-we-know-about-transmission-of-covid-19


Aerosol
What it is: A microscopic virus-packed particle that's also expelled from an infected person's mouth when breathing, speaking, coughing or sneezing. Unlike a droplet , smaller aerosol particles can remain suspended in the air.
"They'll continue to float and follow the air streams in a room," says Kimberly Prather, an atmospheric chemist at Scripps Institution of Oceanography, who signed the letter to WHO.
How a virus could spread this way: Through the respiratory route in which a person breathes in clouds of tiny virus particles that have accumulated and may be traveling on air currents.
How much does it contribute to the spread? It's an open question that begs more research. "Aerosols probably have some contribution toward spread, but we don't know to what extent and what situations are most relevant," says Abraar Karan, a physician at Harvard Medical School who treats coronavirus patients. Viral spread via air currents has been documented in certain indoor environments: at a restaurant in Guangzhou, China, where people sitting downstream from an air conditioner caught COVID-19, and at a March choir practice in Washington state, where many choir members got sick with coronavirus after likely breathing in tiny airborne particles generated by individuals who were infected but symptom-free at the time. What's still unclear is how long the virus lingers in the air, how far it travels (possibly through a room but not down the street) and how commonly it spreads this way.


« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 09:55:40 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Milo

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2020, 09:49:06 am »
Hi Ben,

N95 masks provide around a 2 log reduction (99%) in aerosols

Of course this changes if the masks are not fitted correctly

Did it escape a lab? Well if they wear anything like my fully sealed units at work then no it did not (I work with toxic gas, somewhat smaller than aerosols)

Masks reduce the spread. You may have a difference of opinion.




Offline iddee

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2020, 10:17:00 am »
""Masks reduce the spread. You may have a difference of opinion.""

I agree.

 If you throw a handful of marbles at a chain link fence, some will hit the wires and be stopped, therefore REDUCING the amount going through.
In my opinion, a good comparison.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2020, 11:20:05 am »
Throw that same gravel at a chicken net fence and even more pebbles will be stopped.  Throw that gravel at a #4 hardware cloth fence and very few will get through.  N95 masks are tantamount to the #4 hardware cloth against the gravel.
Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2020, 11:21:18 am »
If you're wearing a chain link fence (neck gaiter or bandana) against the gravel, get a better fence.
Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2020, 11:42:51 am »
Hi Ben,

N95 masks provide around a 2 log reduction (99%) in aerosols

Of course this changes if the masks are not fitted correctly

Did it escape a lab? Well if they wear anything like my fully sealed units at work then no it did not (I work with toxic gas, somewhat smaller than aerosols)

Masks reduce the spread. You may have a difference of opinion.

Hi Milo, I did not mention N 95 which is a surgical grade mask Nor did the abstract of the article you posted. You article abstract specified HOMEMADE mask. Your Abstract was the reason I posted in the first place. Are you informing us that in your country EVERY person wears N 95? I was not under that knowledge.

If not and it makes you feel better to wear your cotton mask, then by all means please do so. A sense of security even if false security is better than feeling naked and afraid. I do not want you to live in constant fear nor am I attempting to persuade you otherwise.

Anything short of N 95 (which does not stop 99 percent), is just as Iddee described chunking a hand full of marbles at a chain link fence.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 01:15:29 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2020, 11:45:43 am »
Again I direct you to reply 40.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Milo

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2020, 09:12:11 am »
I don?t live in fear of contracting it, I don?t wear masks because I?m afraid of it causing me harm, I wear the required masks because I don?t want to contract it and inadvertently pass it to my elderly parents.

There are so many people walking around with high quality masks poorly fitted. If you wear glasses and they fog then your mask isn?t fitted correctly. And then there are those people wandering around with masks hanging off their chins with their noses exposed.

The point of the wearing of the masks here is about reducing the risk. The pebbles at the chook wire was a seriously good analogy. A percentage (not quantifiable) reduction in the spread assists and may help to get this second (arguably still first) wave down to the point where contact tracing and isolation does the rest.

Is it an attack on my freedom? nah just a reasonable measure. If people want to make a statement about not wearing a mask then just put on a bandana with a favourite flag, political statement, MAGA, whatever. Hold it high and fly it with pride, use it to cover your mouth & nose and you will get respect from all reasonable people.

Cheers,

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2020, 12:40:14 pm »
Again I direct you to reply 40.
Aerosol IS water droplets.  Very small water particles.  The virus travels on those water particles, not apart from them.
Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2020, 03:15:37 pm »
I refer to post 40.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 04:50:14 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline salvo

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2020, 11:05:48 pm »
Salvo

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2020, 10:19:17 am »
I refer to post 40.
quoting post 40 "aerosol droplets"  ie water droplets in the air.
Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2020, 10:30:31 am »
Hi Ben,

N95 masks provide around a 2 log reduction (99%) in aerosols

Of course this changes if the masks are not fitted correctly

Did it escape a lab? Well if they wear anything like my fully sealed units at work then no it did not (I work with toxic gas, somewhat smaller than aerosols)

Masks reduce the spread. You may have a difference of opinion.

> Did it escape a lab?

See the video and you decide. Is this true?

The following video is CC For the hearing impaired
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 05:14:11 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2020, 10:45:11 am »
I refer to post 40.
quoting post 40 "aerosol droplets"  ie water droplets in the air.

Post 40
"Unlike a droplet , smaller aerosol particles"

Droplet

What it is: A virus-filled particle of breath or spittle that comes out of the nose or mouth of an infected individual when they breathe, speak, cough or sneeze. Droplets generally fall to the ground within a few feet of the person who expels them.

How a virus could spread this way: "A large droplet flies through the air and lands on your body," says Linsey Marr, a professor of civil and environmental engineering who researches airborne transmission at Virginia Tech. "And that could be your eyes, nostrils or mouth." For instance, "if you're standing next to your kid and they cough in your face," says Seema Lakdawala, a flu researcher at the University of Pittsburgh.

How much does it contribute to the spread? Directly coming into contact with respiratory droplets is currently considered the most frequent mode of transmission, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and WHO.


Aerosol

What it is: A "microscopic" virus-packed particle that's also expelled from an infected person's mouth when breathing, speaking, coughing or sneezing. Unlike a droplet , smaller aerosol particles can remain suspended in the air.
"They'll continue to float and follow the air streams in a room," says Kimberly Prather, an atmospheric chemist at Scripps Institution of Oceanography, who signed the letter to WHO.
How a virus could spread this way: Through the respiratory route in which a person breathes in clouds of tiny virus particles that have accumulated and may be traveling on air currents.
How much does it contribute to the spread? It's an open question that begs more research. "Aerosols probably have some contribution toward spread, but we don't know to what extent and what situations are most relevant," says Abraar Karan, a physician at Harvard Medical School who treats coronavirus patients. Viral spread via air currents has been documented in certain indoor environments: at a restaurant in Guangzhou, China, where people sitting downstream from an air conditioner caught COVID-19, and at a March choir practice in Washington state, where many choir members got sick with coronavirus after likely breathing in tiny airborne particlesgenerated by individuals who were infected but symptom-free at the time. What's still unclear is how long the virus lingers in the air, how far it travels (possibly through a room but not down the street) and how commonly it spreads this way. 


« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 11:00:36 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Hops Brewster

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2020, 10:39:27 am »
some people go through a lot of convolutions to keep themselves ignorant, just the same as a lazy person often works very hard at doing nothing.
What is a water particle?  A particle of water.  Groups of H2O molecules large enough to carry virus cells, large enough to be blocked by a maze of fabric particles.  Get a better fence!
It has recently and repeatedly been proven that wearing masks greatly reduces the spread of the virus.  No one claims that it is perfect, but it does help greatly.  I simply don't understand why so many people are working so hard at proving themselves to be fools.
Winter is coming.

I can't say I hate the government, but I am proudly distrustful of them.

Offline Geoff

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2020, 09:12:39 pm »


   Thats true Hops " When your busy doing nothing ,you have no time to rest "  !  !
Local Area Network in Australia - the LAN down under.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2020, 06:27:09 am »
some people go through a lot of convolutions to keep themselves ignorant, just the same as a lazy person often works very hard at doing nothing.
What is a water particle?  A particle of water.  Groups of H2O molecules large enough to carry virus cells, large enough to be blocked by a maze of fabric particles.  Get a better fence!
It has recently and repeatedly been proven that wearing masks greatly reduces the spread of the virus.  No one claims that it is perfect, but it does help greatly.  I simply don't understand why so many people are working so hard at proving themselves to be fools.
.

Yes Hops water can and does reach the size of a particle, Aerosol particles as I mentioned in reply 40 and again in 53 have been my focus in relation to homemade cotton mask. The article clearly showed the difference between droplets and aerosol particles. 

Definition of aerosol Merriam Webster
1 : a suspension of fine solid or liquid particles in gas
Smoke, fog, and mist are aerosols.
airborne aerosol transmission of infective viral particles
also aerosols plural :

 particle noun Merriam Webster
par?​ti?​cle | \ ˈp?r-ti-kəl  \
Definition of particle
1a: a minute quantity or fragment
b: a relatively small or the smallest discrete portion or amount of something
2archaic : a clause or article of a composition or document
3: any of the basic units of matter and energy (such as a molecule, atom, proton, electron, or photon)

What is the size of a water particle?
about 0.000282 ?m  The quick answer is: The diameter of a water molecule (H2O) is closely calculated to be about 0.000282 ?m (micrometers - millionths of a meter) in diameter. You may say this number (0.000282 ?m) as: "Two-hundred-Eighty-Two millionths of a micrometer" .

Now the real question, what percent of this virus can be stopped; again referring to aerosol particles, (not droplets), with the use of a home made cotton mask? 10 percent 50 percent more or less?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 07:19:28 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2020, 11:54:31 am »
Look, I'm not an anti-maker.  Wear them.  Don't wear them.  They have some small value around vulnerable people, but those people are better off in isolation, not staring at masks.

Quote
It has recently and repeatedly been proven that wearing masks greatly reduces the spread of the virus.

This is only true if you wear the right kind of mask the right way.  For the general public, it is not true.  not true because of the kind of masks they are wearing and the way they are wearing them.  What a mask might do is reduce the amount of virus you spew, and it might reduce the amount of virus you inhale. 

Early on, we had a lot of medical people get sick with this virus.  It happened here and in other countries including China.  The people who got sick, some of whom died, were using PPE.  Granted, they were exposed to far more virus than most of us would find on the street, but they are professionals, and so that has to be taken into account.

Masks are not useless, but they are far less useful than advertised unless you are using the very expensive masks and either sterilizing them after each use or tossing them.

A better solution to the virus would be that we stop these lockdowns, isolate those who are vulnerable and WANT to be isolated, and get on with life.  At this point, our cure is worse than the disease. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Kathyp

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2020, 12:00:19 pm »
I am going to post this primarily for the links within.  I do not know the source and have not yet read through the papers.  I do note that this is written from a particular point of view and as I got toward the bottom of the article, I found that I agree with that POV. 

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/still-no-conclusive-evidence-justifying-mandatory-masks
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Covid 19 Isolation
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2020, 05:49:32 pm »
Kathy I basically agree with your above two replies. Good post good points.

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« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 11:33:42 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.