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Author Topic: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.  (Read 1518 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2020, 12:25:05 pm »
>I'm not exactly following all your questions and your entire line of thinking, Phillip,

Without going into detail, again, I am suggesting; Yes many mites will be taken out with the complete removal of brood for 25 days with 40 percent of remaining mites on the bees dropping according to Blucher as reported by AR, leaving 60% of mites to start up again when the 25 day period is up and the queen goes back to laying.

In reality the percentage of loss of bees must also be considered in this time frame. Bees are steady dying and not one is being replaced and many of the remaining ones are at the point of dying off at the end of this 25 day cycle as well, due to their age in comparison to their lifespan. At the same time many crucial nurse bees graduated into worker bees, losing the the much needed force to feed new brood when the time comes after 25 days of brood break.There will be only a small percent of nurse bees available after the 25 day brood break to feed new fresh larvae.

Probably a higher percentage loss of bees than mites has occurred in this 25 day time frame. Because as stated with sources in my prior two the detailed post, mites can live for months when not reproducing, living on bees as they are doing in this 25 day brood break, Bees only live 5-6 weeks. That means the remaining bees in the hive is losing ground to the mites in this hive. Big disadvantage.

When the queen goes back to laying, there will only be a fraction of nurse bees and a depleted amount of worker bees to attend to new larva. Meaning fewer eggs laid and a slow start to new build up. And the real kicker is remembering 60 percent of mites are available to reinfest this low amount of brood. Now, since I have done a quick explanation, please go back and read my post 35 and 38 (with the added quotes from these experts along with highlighted words and you should receive a clear picture of what I am suggesting and asking my friend. As this quick explanation is leaving off some very important details. :smile:




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« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 02:41:19 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2020, 12:33:47 pm »
Great points Ben.
imho, your logic is sound and solid on this topic. I encourage you to stay the course of your line of thinking for your bees' sake. Others may do what they will.  You have shown clearly to know what is best for yours.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2020, 01:51:16 pm »
Probably a higher percentage loss of bees than mites has occurred in this 25 day time frame.
This is what I needed, I now understand what your concern is.  And a valid concern at that, especially for a hive that isn't overly strong heading into the winter already.  I'm anxious to experiment with the method again next year, and see the what the results will be in the field, as it were.   
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2020, 07:42:45 pm »
>The reason I'm doing it (or attempting to do it) is that I'd like to be completely chemical free.   

I understand.  I don't use oxalic, nor do I do a brood break.  I use natural comb, natural food as much as I can, local feral survivors for stock and no treatments.  As far as removing brood, the one advantage to removing worker brood is you need to have mites that prefer drones.  Removing drone brood selects for Varroa that prefer workers...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2020, 12:03:22 pm »
Great points Ben.
imho, your logic is sound and solid on this topic. I encourage you to stay the course of your line of thinking for your bees' sake. Others may do what they will.  You have shown clearly to know what is best for yours.

Thank you Mr HoneyPump. That means tons coming from you. I went back and changed some of the misspelling in order to cut down on the confusion. Those post were long and I was in a hurry using my phone when creating those post. Some grammar mistakes were made. Probably adding to my good friend Members confusion. The same message remains.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2020, 04:29:05 pm »
>I do not see how the theory of brood break Treatment holds water, (Not much of a benefit)

Yet it seems to by all accounts.  Mel Disselkoen  believes it's because after a break the Varroa are all desperate to reproduce so as soon as there is brood to infest they overinfest it, killing the brood and themselves.  I don't know if this is true or not, but it makes some sense.

Frankly I do none of this.  I don't do brood breaks, though they can be done if timed correctly and make more honey because of it, I don't treat at all.  And I don't have Varroa issues.  You'll are trying to solve a problem I don't have...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2020, 07:40:51 pm »
> Mel Disselkoen  believes it's because after a break the Varroa are all desperate to reproduce so as soon as there is brood to infest they overinfest it, killing the brood and themselves.  I don't know if this is true or not, but it makes some sense.

Yes this theory does make enough sense to be a possibility, but would that not mean we will theoretically turn the situation into a double, back to back, brood break? Once by the beekeepers manually removing the brood and the second, by mites killing the new brood (and being hygienic) bees pulling infested brood,  at a double critical time? If so it seems like a lot of excess stress, especially if the hives was already in some degree of difficulty in the beginning? 

> Frankly I do none of this.  I don't do brood breaks, though they can be done if timed correctly and make more honey because of it, I don't treat at all.  And I don't have Varroa issues.  You'll are trying to solve a problem I don't have...




Thank you Mr Bush


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« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 12:29:25 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Online AR Beekeeper

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2020, 10:03:43 am »
Well, I am beginning to feed to top off my colonies for winter, and I am seeing the results from caging the queen in July to create a brood break.  I caged the queens in 4 colonies 28 days before I planned to do mite treatments in August.  The remaining 8 colonies were managed in the usual manner of allowing the queens free range in a medium and a deep hive configuration.

When I released the queens I treated all the colonies in the apiary with HopGuard 3.  Using HopGuard 3 was a big mistake, it gave a poor kill (about 45% based on alcohol washes), and caused the bees to react in a way I have never seen before.  In all colonies the bees completely abandoned the frames on which the HopGuard was placed.  They clustered outside on the face of the colony, and 4 colonies the queens were lost.  All colonies stopped rearing brood for the 14 days the strips were in.  Two colonies failed to requeen themselves, dwindled down to the point they failed to survive.

The 4 colonies that underwent the queen caging are now my strongest colonies both in adult bees and frames of brood.  If these 4 colonies survive the winter I intend to again do the caging before the summer mite treatments.  I used a simple cage made from hardware cloth, 8 mesh, hung between the center frames of the brood box to hold the queens.

Instead of caging the queens in July I think it would be better to cage the middle of June when the nectar flow is winding down and the temps are not quite so high.  I am still undecided on what type of treatment to use after the queens are released, chemical or trapping combs.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2020, 11:43:30 am »
AR did you remove all your brood when you caged those queens? Or did you simply just cage the queens?
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Online AR Beekeeper

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2020, 12:26:31 pm »
I just caged the queens.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2020, 12:55:10 pm »
I just caged the queens.

Thanks AR. I think that would work better than removing the brood, and it did as you have shown. With the brood allowed to remain in your hive, you still had, as Mr HP put it as bees on order. Hopguard must be some rough stuff. I for one, know nothing about it. Just for discussion sake, since you caged the queens for 28 days, you had no new brood being developed from that point on through the 28 day caging.  That means just before you released the queens all original brood, capped and uncapped were developed and hatched or emerged as some say, you created a true brood break . That means the mites had no brood to go to. During this 28 day time period, would this have been a good time to treat with OAV in intervals while the queen was caged? Then treating one last time at the end of the twenty eight day caging just after, or prior to the releasing the queen? Would this have taken care of all or most mites which were in the hive that are, or were hitchhiking on your bees? That way there would be no mites to infest the brand new larvae that the hive would be raising and a fresh new start. I appreciate VERY much you posting your caged queen results here on the topic, along with your hopguard experience.

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2020, 01:42:36 pm »
Yes, all of the varroa in the colony would be on adults.  It would take probably 2 days for the queen to begin to lay, and then it would be 8 days before the larvae would be the right age for the varroa to enter the cells to reproduce.

I have no experience with OAV, I had intended to use the trickle method after the 28 day caging, but was talked into trying HopGuard 3.  I intend to try the trickle method this coming year.  The ideal situation to kill mites is when they are not in the brood, but I don't know what effect the treatments would have on a caged queen that was not in contact with nurse bees that could groom the acid from her body.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Varroa control via capped brood removal during a dearth.
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2020, 04:51:07 pm »
>I don't know what effect the treatments would have on a caged queen


In that case a person could simply skip the interval treatments, treating only after the 28 day period is up when the queen is released if OAV was used.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 06:54:34 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.