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Offline 2Sox

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Combining questions
« on: May 28, 2020, 05:23:06 pm »
I?m in the process of combining two weak colonies, both from swarms.  One has a laying queen.  The other has several supercedure cells - pretty poor quality. They are now separated by a double screen board.

My questions:
1. If a virgin queen is present (in the colony with supecedure cells) when the screen is removed and they are combined, what events will transpire?
2. If a cell or cells are still present, will the laying queen destroy them? (That?s my guess.)
3. Will these cells interfere in any way with the entire combination process?

A related question:
If I introduced a mated queen to that colony with queen cells, would the colony reject/kill the introduced queen?
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Online TheHoneyPump

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2020, 03:20:41 am »
I will have a go at your questions.

1.  The virgin will seek and kill the other queen

2.  Not likely.  Laying queens are interested in laying.  If the queen cell(s) are open and short, the laying queen will eat the larvae and some of the jelly.  If the cell(s) are extended or capped, the laying queen cannot and will not destroy them.

3.  No. Cells will not interfere with combining the bees.  However, as 1 and 2 above the cells will definitely adversely affect the laying queen in due course and time.

4.  No.  In my experience, generally, the colony does not kill a laying queen if she is introduced properly.  The emerging virgin(s) from missed cells do the killing.

Hope that helps!



I?m in the process of combining two weak colonies, both from swarms.  One has a laying queen.  The other has several supercedure cells - pretty poor quality. They are now separated by a double screen board.

My questions:
1. If a virgin queen is present (in the colony with supecedure cells) when the screen is removed and they are combined, what events will transpire?
2. If a cell or cells are still present, will the laying queen destroy them? (That?s my guess.)
3. Will these cells interfere in any way with the entire combination process?

A related question:
If I introduced a mated queen to that colony with queen cells, would the colony reject/kill the introduced queen?
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Offline 2Sox

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2020, 08:45:55 am »
Thanks, HoneyPump!  This is very useful information.

What I?m inferring from your answers is that it might be a good idea for me to destroy those cells and/or find that virgin queen before I pull away that screen - so as not to take any chances.  What do you think?



I will have a go at your questions.

1.  The virgin will seek and kill the other queen

2.  Not likely.  Laying queens are interested in laying.  If the queen cell(s) are open and short, the laying queen will eat the larvae and some of the jelly.  If the cell(s) are extended or capped, the laying queen cannot and will not destroy them.

3.  No. Cells will not interfere with combining the bees.  However, as 1 and 2 above the cells will definitely adversely affect the laying queen in due course and time.

4.  No.  In my experience, generally, the colony does not kill a laying queen if she is introduced properly.  The emerging virgin(s) from missed cells do the killing.

Hope that helps!



I?m in the process of combining two weak colonies, both from swarms.  One has a laying queen.  The other has several supercedure cells - pretty poor quality. They are now separated by a double screen board.

My questions:
1. If a virgin queen is present (in the colony with supecedure cells) when the screen is removed and they are combined, what events will transpire?
2. If a cell or cells are still present, will the laying queen destroy them? (That?s my guess.)
3. Will these cells interfere in any way with the entire combination process?

A related question:
If I introduced a mated queen to that colony with queen cells, would the colony reject/kill the introduced queen?
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2020, 09:53:30 am »
Sox, good morning.  I agree with HP with only one different opinion.  Very rare for HP and my experience to vary.  Regarding your question of introducing a queen to a hive with queen cells: a defensive hive will kill the queen.   I had a terrible time with one particular testy hive killing my introduced queens.  I eventually gave up and waited until the following Spring.

Note: HP stated CORRECTLY INTRODUCED, maybe my method was in error.  I do not use the candy cage release method.  I use direct release with a full size frame cage after the bees show signs of acceptance which may be a day or as long as a week before I release the queen.

But maybe a better question, why release a queen to a hive with queen cells?  I would destroy the queen cells then introduced the queen.
Cheers
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2020, 11:24:45 am »
But maybe a better question, why release a queen to a hive with queen cells?  I would destroy the queen cells then introduced the queen.
Cheers

Thanks, Van. I was just thinking the same thing!. :happy:

I was also thinking, why not just give both a chance to increase, see if one of those cells take, and later on make an informed decision.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Online TheHoneyPump

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2020, 01:44:29 pm »
A recommendation:  when faced with introducing a new queen to a hive that you anticipate acceptance may be troublesome, the method I suggest to use is the push-in cage.  Use a large push-in, covering half the frame and leave them alone undisturbed for 7min to 10max days.  You want to be back under 10 days to seek and destroy any queen cells they may have started.

When looking for cells to eliminate risks to the queen, to be thorough one must go through frame by frame and MUST shake all the bees off of every frame then check it.  Not all queen cells are prominent and obvious.  Some are small nubs ingeniously nestled in amongst cap brood around it.

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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2020, 02:51:17 pm »
Good pics HP:  yep, yes Sir, ya, you bet ya, yes, agreed, finding every single qc can be challenging.  My bees are very good at finding some obscure place for a qc in which your pic demonstrates.  A pic is truly worth a thousand words.  Thanks for taking your time to resize and post the pics, HP.
Cheers
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Nock

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2020, 06:44:52 pm »
Wow. Those would be easy to miss.

Offline 2Sox

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2020, 09:36:22 am »
Great pics and explanation, HP.  Thanks.
"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful." - Eli Siegel, American educator, poet, founder of Aesthetic Realism

Offline Seeb

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2020, 12:35:07 pm »
those look like drone cells to me, so I may have had some queen cells in the past that i mistook for drone. I'm assuming the pics you have are very young queen cells that will eventually look like a peanut? Very sneaky, those bees

Online TheHoneyPump

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Combining questions
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2020, 12:46:13 pm »
Those are fully developed and capped queen cells in the picts. Definitely not drone I can assure you. A QC will always point downward. A drone will point horizontal, straight out.
The point is that not all QCs are projected and look like the hanging peanut. The bees will chomp out cell structure below to point the larvae down then encase it. The picts demonstrate how  easy those can be to miss.  Actually, I find more of nestled cells like this than the peanuts - especially in newer wax.
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Offline Seeb

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2020, 01:00:40 pm »
Definitely not drone I can assure you

Believe me, I am not questioning you at all, your experience in invaluable and I thank you for sharing. I love learning from you beeks

Offline Nock

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2020, 03:30:29 pm »
HP in your pics would those be considered supersedure cells? 

Online TheHoneyPump

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Combining questions
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2020, 04:06:03 pm »
Those examples are emergency cells.
Supercedure are typically 2 to 3 cells tightly grouped together and usually hanging peanut style, side by side, same area of the frame though.
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Combining questions
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2020, 06:46:29 pm »
Very good information HP. I've also seen the "hidden" QC's. Very hard to find sometimes.
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