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Author Topic: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment  (Read 3131 times)

Online Ben Framed

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Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« on: May 22, 2020, 08:31:51 am »
Does anyone here use Tim Rowes? method of steam cleaning equipment, (box interior, along with frames) ?
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2020, 06:53:30 am »
Why bother cleaning the inside of a box, need higher temp to kill AFB spores. frames are just put through boiling water where the wax is recovered at the end.
Steam cleaning would just blow wax everywhere.
Ask, why and what am I achieving? Or am I wasting time that I could be used to do other things that are more productive.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2020, 08:25:35 am »
Ben I think you will find it is not worth the bother for a hobbyist and commercial beeks wouldn't spend the time.  I think it is more for the in between as a way of rendering wax.
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2020, 09:54:37 am »
I did not word that correctly. My apologies. I should have ask if anyone uses Tim's method of wax melting and sterilizing  with steam . I will repost this interesting three minute video for the benefit of newer members and those who might not have seen it when I posted it before. 

https://youtu.be/Wzkxq7qGqxQ
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 11:16:42 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline CapnChkn

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2020, 04:06:28 am »
I tend to agree with Ben.  The problem with most of the "sterilization" I have heard about from beekeepers is to "light some newspaper" in the empty boxes and scorch the disease out.  That is told to me over and over.  This premise has it's fallacy in thinking the microorganisms will be all over the surface, and they'll be scorched.  But they'll be in crevices in the wood, held under a layer of cooler air held against the hive body, etc.

It doesn't work.  The amount of heat needed to destroy the spores, and other microorganisms would be 165F (74C) for a period of 20 minutes or more.  The problem with Tim Rowe's method is the outside of the hives will not be able to reach and keep that temperature.  The solution would be to put the boxes in an oven type enclosure, like an insulated box, then steamed for a very long time.

Commercial beeks are accomplishing this by "Hot Dipping" their bodies and parts in paraffin, held at a temperature of around 280F (138C) for 10 minutes.

I talked with our local inspector about the idea, in relation to AFB, and of course he couldn't give me any information.  All he would say is the bacteria (I guess he meant the spores) can stand some extremes, and he wouldn't do it.  Unless I can find some hard data that suggests baking the wood to a temperature the inner wood, in the center of the board thickness, could be kept at the critical temperature, I can't say this will take care of AFB.

The only evidence as to it's working is the boiling of the frames in lye water.  The beekeeper that told me he did it said, "Those frames come out so pretty!  Like they're brand new!"  Boiling the wood would raise the temperature of the wood in it's core to the critical temperature.  I don't know what the lye might do.
"Thinking is like sin, them that doesn't is scairt of it, and them that does gets to liking it so much they can't quit!"  -Josh Billings.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2020, 06:43:21 am »
Yes cooking frames in lye will clean them extremely well, bot does not sterilise them.
To kill AFB spores you can dip in wax at 150 C for 10 minutes, minimum.
Or if you really want to sterilise you take the hive, base, lid, frames, double wrap it in garbage bags and send them off to be irradiated.
Commercial BK's pack them on a pallet for shipping.
It costs about $10 per hive but it is a true sterilising of everything.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2020, 08:58:46 am »
It costs about $10 per hive but it is a true sterilising of everything.
We certainly wouldn't burn hives if it could be done for that price in this country.  Who is subsidizing this process?
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2020, 01:23:30 pm »
Phillip,
I built one of these steam wax melter.  I use propane to heat the water. Not very efficient. I will probably try to use wood the next time, it takes a lot of steam to melt all of the wax. It does work.
We used it at both BeeFest 2019 and 2020.
Jim Altmiller
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Offline CapnChkn

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2020, 01:59:40 pm »
Wood in it's core wouldn't reach the 150C you are saying, but would achieve critical temperatures.  That's the point I'm making.  When you pull the parts from the wax, there would be residual heat that would then continue to cook the spores.

Given a certain amount of pressure, 5 or 6 lbs, the temperatures of the steam could be increased.  I don't have any math about it, but I have been watching the "Engles Coach Shop" channel on YouTube, where in this video he talks about Steam bending wood.

At the time point in this 20 minute video, he mentions using pressure to increase the heat of the steam.  The critical points are at 10:50, and 13:20.  Of course, you can't boil water hotter than 212F (100C) unless you increase the pressure, and he kind of gets it backwards, but I understood what he's saying...

https://youtu.be/1pPKUgpn0CI?t=650

Using Tim Rowe's method, the wax would be rendered, the chamber closed, and pressure allowed to increase to the 4 to 8 lbs needed to increase the heat of the steam.
===================================
All that being academic.  I don't see why there would be an advantage to a spore to tolerate temperatures greater than the usual living environment.  The bacteria isn't an Alien from some dystopian civilization in deep space, it's an opportunistic disease on Earth.  You and I wouldn't be able to tolerate temperatures higher than 140F degrees for any length of time, our proteins would coagulate like egg albumen in a frying pan.

Spores are meant to allow seeding after extremes, so they are tougher for whatever purpose, but not impervious.  It's been said it the spores can be destroyed at a temperature of 300F (150C) for 10 minutes.  If the temperatures can be held at a lower level for longer time, I can easily imagine it would have the same effect.
"Thinking is like sin, them that doesn't is scairt of it, and them that does gets to liking it so much they can't quit!"  -Josh Billings.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2020, 02:12:57 pm »
What you say makes sense CapnChkn. Thanks for posting.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 10:09:11 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2020, 07:09:24 pm »
Acebird
No subsidy, private company called Steritech.
www.steritech.com.au

Offline Acebird

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2020, 09:28:32 am »
Acebird
No subsidy, private company called Steritech.
www.steritech.com.au
Hard to do in this country with all the restrictions on radiation.  Most medical products are plastic based so ETO is primarily used in that industry.  Something has to subsidize sterilizing bee equipment because the process would eliminate the need.  Burning the hive accomplishes the same thing and the cost is on the individual beekeeper unless insurance is in the picture.  (We like to support Wall Street)
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2020, 02:52:31 pm »
Yes cooking frames in lye will clean them extremely well, bot does not sterilise them.
To kill AFB spores you can dip in wax at 150 C for 10 minutes, minimum.
Or if you really want to sterilise you take the hive, base, lid, frames, double wrap it in garbage bags and send them off to be irradiated.
Commercial BK's pack them on a pallet for shipping.
It costs about $10 per hive but it is a true sterilising of everything.

Mr. Beavo, wish we had to opportunity to irradiate For $10 bucks a hive.  As Ace texted, we don?t have the facilities.  I really don?t have any need to sterilize bee equipment.  If my hives ever display AFB, incinerating would be accomplished without delay.  Folks in the US shy away from anything with the word radiation.  Medical imaging: The word nuclear magnetic radiation, NMR, had to be changed to nuclear magnetic imaging, NMI because folks were afraid of the word radiation, so hospitals changed the name or just say NMR while omitting the word radiation.  Early 2000 US had irradiated chicken, sterilized chicken, but folks would not buy, again fear of radiation.  There are reasons why folks fear radiation, but that is going beyond BeeMaster.

I think your lucky, Beavo, that you have an opportunity, a choice to sterilize hives.  Hopefully I will never need that luxury.

Cheers
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2020, 08:40:15 am »
[quote ]

I think your lucky, Beavo, that you have an opportunity, a choice to sterilize hives.
Cheers
[/quote]
Well maybe not.  The fact that there if the option means there is a need.  I would rather be in our situation without the need.
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Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2020, 07:18:44 am »
Acebird
Does that mean that the US doesn't have AFB?
Sterilisation with radiation is also use by some BK's to clean up hive that are not AFB effected. One Bk I know takes any deadouts and wraps them till he has enough on the pallet to make the 200 mile trip worth while. He says that after sterilising the boxes are like new and the bees boom in them.
Also it is useful if you do get AFB, a lot cheaper than burning.
It is a risk in large scale pollination schemes. Also when a big honey flow is in an area and bees move into the district you don't need a poor BK that doesn't monitor his hives.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2020, 10:13:24 am »
CapnChkn post number 8 makes sense to me. Why would we think he is wrong? Or that Tims method of sterilization will not work as explained by CapnChkn in post 8? 
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2020, 08:32:15 pm »
If the experts say "150c for 10 min" then I am not going to try and short cut the requirements to kill AFB spores.
If you can seal your boxes and have a thermometer to make sure you reach 150c then steam would be OK.
AS a lot of BK's have a wax dipping system that you can run to 150C then why not use it.
Also a steam generating system to potentially achieve sterilisation would be more expensive than a wax dipper, that has more use in generally producing your wood ware.

A box that has wax on the sides comes out of the wax dipper very clean, so sterilise and clean.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2020, 10:49:49 pm »
Thanks Oldbeavo, for the information that you gave (To kill AFB spores you can dip in wax at 150 C for 10 minutes, minimum). This is all new ground to me. Sterilization via steam has been discussed here more than once since I have been here, but Your information along with CapnChkn has added an interesting twist. I do not know if Tims Wax melter / Sterilizer method meets the requirements that CapnChkn has made us aware of about pressure, I would like to know. If not enough pressure is reached in the time frame offered as is, I suppose an added exit pressure valve equipped with Tims set up to hold pressure, let's say to 20 psi, and relieve pressure down to let's say, 5-10 psi then immediately closing until 20 or even more, is reached again if safe; Then we could be certain of proper sterilization along with clean frames and boxes all in one? Is this a correct assumption?

Phillip Hall




« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 11:32:03 pm by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2020, 06:56:42 am »
I would think that the hive would have to put into a chamber that sealed it so as to build enough pressure to get the temperature high enough for a long enough period.
Like a pressure cooker used to cook food.
Again if you are going to be serious about long term bee keeping and make your wood ware you will need a wax dipper.
We do have some big bee operations, 1500 hive that buy their boxes branded, wax dipped and painted, to what ever color you order.
When asked about why they don't construct their own, the answer is that he can make more money looking after his bees.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Steam Cleaning Your Woodware Equipment
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2020, 08:13:32 am »
Thanks for your answers Oldbeavo. I have watched Tims video very closely. When he shows the inlet steam pipe removed while in use you can hear the release of this pressure. What his set up is, is basically like a pressure cooker.The pressure does build but to what extent I do not know.  I do know that he has the crude safety relief valve fixed in case the pressure reaches to high, I do not know if the pressure is great enough to do any good with the escaping that is allowed at the wax exit hole at the bottom. If it is, then great. If not, is the reason I suggested the possibility of the added relief valve (a real relief valve that controls the pressure). The bug of the drain hole would have to be addressed as well.

There are those here that wax dip their equipment in America as well. This practice is beginning to catch on. I suppose in the case of the unfortunate circumstance that someone should come up with AFB or some other bad stuff, they could re- dip that specific equipment for sterilization purposes. Until now I had decided that burning was the only way except the practice used In NC that Iddee had talked about a while back in another discussion.

In Tims case there in Ireland, and his set up, I was basically leaning and had in mind the recovery of the wax for this discussion. I wasn't so interested in sterilization as I had already resolved that AFB could not be controlled in this fashion as discussed in older discussions. I am happy that this discussion has evolved the way it has toward sterilization. I am now wondering if Tims way of recovering wax, might be an actual avenue of a bonus if you will, to sterilizing all hives of that years rotation, while recovering the years wax. Of course plastic foundation brood, or plastic honey foundations could not be utlized as warping reported. Very interesting to me.




« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 08:37:19 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.