Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Cut-down split  (Read 949 times)

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Cut-down split
« on: May 14, 2020, 10:39:08 pm »
I guess this is what a cut-down split is.  I saw queen cells, one of them capped, the rest at various stages.  Sometimes I get lucky and find the queen.  I moved her, open brood, and honey and pollen to a new location.  I left the queen cells at the old, removed all but the best looking one, and all the capped brood.  I didn't get a chance to look in until today, when I expected the queen to be close to be on mating flights.  I looked anyway, found the cell had hatched out, the cap was opened up.  It was getting stormy looking and it appeared all the bees were home and there were lots of them.  I also found half a dozen of capped queen cells I missed previously.  I did not get lucky in finding the new queen.

Past experience says that even though I've read the first one hatches out and is supposed to kill the rest, they will swarm several times.  With as many as these bees, it is likely they will think they can swarm.  I cut out all but one cell.  I might have missed some in the mass.  Any suggestions at this point?

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10077
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2020, 06:36:15 am »
Only suggestion I have is get ready to buy a queen. I have never found a better way to kill a good hive than removing all or most of the swarm cells. They make several because they know success is not 100%. 
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline JurassicApiary

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 184
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2020, 02:20:54 pm »
I cut out all but one cell.  I might have missed some in the mass.  Any suggestions at this point?

As a future recommendation, I would leave the 4 largest cells when thinning out queen cells.  No less.

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2020, 07:24:05 pm »
Well, ok.  But what about them swarming?  That has happened in the past, and I've read that depending on things, they'll swarm until there's nothing left.  Being they started cells at various stages, that's what I was thinking they were going to do.

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10077
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2020, 09:37:36 pm »
If they swarm, it's because you didn't remove enough bees with the queen in the split.You have to remove enough for them to not be congested and they think they have already swarmed. I have heard people say a hive swarmed itself to death, but I have split hives before and still caught four swarms from it. It didn't die.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline guitarstitch

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2020, 09:22:21 am »
Only suggestion I have is get ready to buy a queen. I have never found a better way to kill a good hive than removing all or most of the swarm cells. They make several because they know success is not 100%.

Completely accurate.

My solution is to make multiple splits.  One frame of queen cell laden brood per split.  Obviously, this makes for weak splits, but you can harvest resource bees from strong colonies to keep the splits going until they take root.  Feeding helps encourage perpetuation of the splits.

I have one hive that I have split multiple times this year due to extremely generous queen cell production.  At one point, they pulled queen cells from a supplementary frame of brood that I put into the split...so I had to split the split.
-Matthew Pence/Stitch

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2020, 08:32:56 pm »
How is making multiple splits with one queen cell in each split different than making one split and removing all but two cells?  While multiple splits have would have back ups for the overall splits, wouldn't any one split would be at the same situation?
I had already made several splits and didn't have enough boxes to separate these. :(

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10077
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2020, 09:30:21 pm »
Duane, there's a difference in one queen cell and one frame laden with queen cells. One swarm cell may mean 20 splits. One frame will mean 4 or 5 at most.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline guitarstitch

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2020, 08:02:15 am »
How is making multiple splits with one queen cell in each split different than making one split and removing all but two cells?  While multiple splits have would have back ups for the overall splits, wouldn't any one split would be at the same situation?
I had already made several splits and didn't have enough boxes to separate these. :(

I have greater odds of success in at least some of the splits.  If one split fails to requeen and two others take, then I still end up with two hives and some resource frames that I can redistribute back to the new successful splits.  However, if I count on only one split and have left myself with no other queen cells, then I'm banking everything on that one split.

Sounds like it's time to break out the saws and make some more woodenware!  Welcome to beekeeping, where all we do is build boxes.  lol
-Matthew Pence/Stitch

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2020, 11:39:50 am »
Thanks iddee, I had overlooked or misunderstood where he said a frame laden with queen cells.  I thought one cell with brood, or that you would cut out the cells and add to other brood frames.

And yes, I've been making more boxes.  I had expected to have most of my hives die like the year before and so would have plenty.  However, such unfortunate things happen, I only lost one hive.  So I've been scrambling to make hives and frames and catch the queen cells before they're capped.  It does seem like it takes a lot of my time.  Kind of satisfying to have this problem.

One hive that was doing really well, it appears that so far, I've been able to stave off it from producing queen cells.  Hope that's not an indication of something wrong.  It looks good, lots of bees, still space.  But I'm concerned that the sweet clover is going to bloom and what am I going to do with all that honey I've never experienced in all these several years!

Offline JojoBeeBoy

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 82
  • Gender: Male
    • @joebeewhisperer on Instagram
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2020, 02:22:41 am »

Sounds like it's time to break out the saws and make some more woodenware!  Welcome to beekeeping, where all we do is build boxes.  lol
[/quote]

Yep. While I haven't built any, I have the classy problem of having to go buy some in the next 2-3 days. I have a single deep that I boxed in, and only put on a medium 2 days ago when I noticed "swarm practice". They calmed down and started drawing comb immediately, but I'm figuring there may QCs. I am out of something to put them in except for rigging something up.


Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4939
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2020, 10:41:34 am »

Sounds like it's time to break out the saws and make some more woodenware!  Welcome to beekeeping, where all we do is build boxes.  lol

Yep. While I haven't built any, I have the classy problem of having to go buy some in the next 2-3 days. I have a single deep that I boxed in, and only put on a medium 2 days ago when I noticed "swarm practice". They calmed down and started drawing comb immediately, but I'm figuring there may QCs. I am out of something to put them in except for rigging something up.



As guitarstitch said. You need to have plenty of extra equipment readily available at all times. If you wait until you need it, and do not have it, you may be too late. This is one of the first things I learned before I had my first bee. (By watching different folks on YouTube). I am thinking Don Kuchenmeister is the first person that made me aware of the importance of having plenty of wood ware. This well given advice has proved to be true time and again for me. Have that extra equipment ready to be put into service at a minutes notice. Wishing you fun and success.

I have modified to show you my reserve of 300 built, (foundation-less brood frames), with starter strips ready to go. When I get low I simply put more together and restock.

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]


.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 11:54:33 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2020, 05:39:13 pm »
Yes.  But...  I had made 5 more boxes with frames.  They were intended to go on hives to prevent swarming.  I got home, used two of them to house a swarm next to my boxes, used another to split a hive with capped swarm cells.  And finally got to use the other two to add space.  But I'm out now, and there are splits that have bees hanging on the outside of the boxes.

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2020, 05:44:45 pm »
I have a single deep that I boxed in, and only put on a medium 2 days ago when I noticed "swarm practice". They calmed down and started drawing comb immediately, but I'm figuring there may QCs. I am out of something to put them in except for rigging something up.
Does that sometimes work?  I had a hive that had started cells, I opened up the brood nest, added a box, and they still capped them later.

What if there's just cups with eggs in them?  Can you stop it, especially if it was because they were out of space?

Interesting side note, I have seen some cups with what I thought at first was royal jelly, but saw no larva, and it was clear.  Do bees store nectar in queen cups?  As in they're desperate for space?!

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2020, 05:53:33 pm »
On one split I had left a frame with multiple queen cells in, I soon noticed cells with about a dozen eggs in it.  So multiple cells don't guarantee it.  I added a frame of open brood, then a day or two later, found another hive with queen cells.  I added a frame with cells and a few days later saw the cells were still intact.  Can that work out, do the bees with the added frame protect the cells from the other bees?

Offline CoolBees

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2020, 05:23:04 pm »
...
I have modified to show you my reserve of 300 built, (foundation-less brood frames), with starter strips ready to go. When I get low I simply put more together and restock.

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]


.
That is quite a stock of frames Phillip! ... is it my imagination, or did you go from "Zero" to "100" in keeping bees - in record time? :cheesy: :cool:

Nicely done!
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4939
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2020, 08:30:06 pm »
...
I have modified to show you my reserve of 300 built, (foundation-less brood frames), with starter strips ready to go. When I get low I simply put more together and restock.

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]


.
That is quite a stock of frames Phillip! ... is it my imagination, or did you go from "Zero" to "100" in keeping bees - in record time? :cheesy: :cool:

Nicely done!

Thanks Alan, I have had a lot of good help for a lot good folks like you all here.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4939
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2020, 08:32:55 pm »
I would like to add, it seems I learn something new here almost daily. Or in the least, see things more clearly. I am very appreciative of my friends here.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 09:35:30 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2020, 09:12:29 pm »
Only suggestion I have is get ready to buy a queen. I have never found a better way to kill a good hive than removing all or most of the swarm cells. They make several because they know success is not 100%. 
Ok, you told me so.  Multiple eggs, and looking like drones being made into queens.

So what do I do now?  The box is mostly full of nectar, I have no hives needing nectar, actually needing empty frames.  Will adding the nectar and the bees after the shakeout going to other hives result in them swarming?

Offline Duane

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cut-down split
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2020, 09:17:31 pm »
I have modified to show you my reserve of 300 built, (foundation-less brood frames), with starter strips ready to go. When I get low I simply put more together and restock.
I also use foundation-less frames.  I no longer can find the ones from kelley bees that are made for foundationless.  The current ones I got elsewhere, I am using their wedge to turn sideways.  Tedious and time consuming.  What type of frames do you use and how do you make the starter strips?  I'd like to get solid bottom boards to prevent the hive beetles from lurking there, but had never found any that way.