Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Hard to duplicate  (Read 955 times)

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Hard to duplicate
« on: April 17, 2020, 10:15:48 pm »
I've got my "best" queen, from 2018, made honey then, lots of honey last year, biggest hive this year on track to make honey again.  Ideal brood pattern. Gentle, I can push them around with my finger. Doing something right about mites.

But I can't seem to raise her daughters to queens. Grafts dont take or get torn down. "OTS"-style splits,  they only raise one QC per frame, and then when I put them into nucs they don't come back.

Two rounds of failing to raise this Q's daughters failed last year and one so far this year. All the same methods,  same time, same yard, different queen-mother, successful.

What gives?  Have you had this before? Is it maybe some genetic predisposition against raising daughters?

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk


Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2020, 10:43:00 pm »
A genetic disposition against rearing offspring would be highly unusual.   Never met a queen I could not graft from.  Grafting can be tricky: chill, age larva, rotating larva is lethal, prescented cups, number of nurse bees and available food, absence of queen pheromones, wet graft, dry graft, larva injured while grafting, larva drown in jelly, sepsis[bacteria]...
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online TheHoneyPump

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 790
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2020, 01:13:00 am »
Ya.  Everything Van said.
Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees

Offline CoolBees

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1203
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2020, 11:11:34 am »
A genetic disposition against rearing offspring would be highly unusual.   Never met a queen I could not graft from.  Grafting can be tricky: chill, age larva, rotating larva is lethal, prescented cups, number of nurse bees and available food, absence of queen pheromones, wet graft, dry graft, larva injured while grafting, larva drown in jelly, sepsis[bacteria]...

Mr Van, you make grafting sound so easy! ... makes me want to jump right in!  :grin: :cheesy:

In all seriousness, I've always appreciated your extensive knowledge. The only way you could spell out the many pitfalls in Grafting, is because you've faced each of them in great depth. Thank you for your always-valuable input.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2020, 07:52:46 am »
Ok I'll try again.

I did some reading up.

Other things that are different about this hive than just the queen:
> older comb. They don't really have fresh-wax worker combs to make QCs when I split them regularly. So they're working harder to make fewer QCs.
> my starter. Since this has been the strongest hive in the yard and the main honey maker these years, I haven't been making maybe as strong if a starter as I could, because I want to keep the strong hive strong.

So I'm going to try again.

How long does the starter need to be queenless before they're ready to accept grafts?

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk


Offline sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 11243
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2020, 08:14:07 am »
Matt,
2 hours. After that they are thinking about making their own queen cells.
Jim Altmiller

Online iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9927
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2020, 08:16:12 am »
I would put a frame of foundation or new drawn comb into the center of the brood nest. Then graft from it as soon as the first eggs hatch.

I would make a starter nuc that they had to beard, as they couldn't all get in, using bees from another hive. Make it in the morning and graft that afternoon.
Six to eight days later, check all other frames for wild queen cells and remove them. Place the capped, grafted cells in protective cages, and in incubator if available. If not, leave in nuc until day 14, then harvest.

As Jim posted while I was typing, 2 hours is sufficient, but anytime the same day or the next will do.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 5919
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2020, 08:58:54 am »
Ok I'll try again.

You are working too hard Matt.  Just split the hive in half and walk away.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2020, 09:24:45 am »
Ok I'll try again.

You are working too hard Matt.  Just split the hive in half and walk away.
http://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/traffic.libsyn.com/beekeepingtodaypodcast/Developing_A_Breeding_Program_with_Sue_Cobey_Tim_Lawrence_Steve_Sheppard__S2_E24.mp3?dest-id=715151

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/

No.

I think my bee yards could be more productive.

And I like to explore.

Next step for me is learning to consistently raise queens from my selection of hives.

I've really been successful making splits in the past, and also have grafted queens, but never from this hive (my best one!) And it's frustrating,  and I'm not going to give up yet. Also, with just making splits, if I get 75 or less percent return mated, I'm only breaking even on the bees.

So I'm going to figure this out. If I don't like the results or if it really is too much work, I'll go back to just splitting every hive and letting the chips fall.

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk


Online iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9927
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2020, 10:04:59 am »
First, read this.............

http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

Second, forget 75%. Consider 50% successful.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4261
  • North Mississippi
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2020, 11:25:08 pm »
First, read this.............

http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

Second, forget 75%. Consider 50% successful.

I appreciate this article iddee.
Thanks
Phillip Hall
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Online Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 5919
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2020, 08:38:02 am »
Second, forget 75%. Consider 50% successful.

If a species had a 50% success at propagation it wouldn't exist.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Online iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9927
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2020, 09:51:00 am »
If fish had a 2% success rate, it would fill the waterways and all die. Different for different species of animals.

10 to 20 swarm cells for one queen. What percentage is that in a natural setting.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2020, 09:52:36 am »
Second, forget 75%. Consider 50% successful.

If a species had a 50% success at propagation it wouldn't exist.
That's why they throw afterswarms.

Seeley's research says 20% survivability of new swarms the year after. 80% of parent colonies. 

We gotta do a little better than nature ;)

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk


Online iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9927
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2020, 10:06:41 am »
I always thought 50% was just a tad better than 20%. Am I wrong in my math?   :shocked:   :cheesy:
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Online Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4261
  • North Mississippi
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2020, 10:55:23 am »
I always thought 50% was just a tad better than 20%. Am I wrong in my math?   :shocked:   :cheesy:


YES

lol J/k. I could not resist.   :cheesy:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Online TheHoneyPump

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 790
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Hard to duplicate
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2020, 11:47:45 am »
Walk away splits are easy.  They work.  HOWEVER ... they take away alot of power (bees) from main hive and you get nothing back for well over a month ... that is IF she is successful.  If if it fails then a month has gone by, you are back to the beginning with a box of old worn out bees near end of life. You have basically just killed a box of bees in a slow agonizing way.  I will never ever do a split without a mated queen in my pocket. 

It does not take much to get a queen mated.  2 frames of bees and resources will look after her.  I set 2 sometimes 3 ripe cells about to emerge in each 2 frame nuc. The nuc bees get to pick one or the queens will just fight it out the next morning. After I have a successful laying queen in the 2F nuc, only then will I plan my split. This method minimizes the impact to the main hives and keeps them as productive as possible for as long as possible.

Best is to graft cells and time the calendar to makeup the nucs 2 days before the cells will emerge.  Let the nuc sit queenless for half day.  Make the nuc in the morning.  Put the cells in at evening. The benefits are
- mating nucs minimize the bees taken from the main hive(s) so they stay powerful for as long as possible
- the mating nuc has a laying queen in 11 to 20 days instead of 35+ days of a walk away split

The success rate of the mating is entirely up to nature. That is out of control.  What you do have control over is timing of when and how much to be weakening the main hive and how quickly the new hive will be established. You cannot improve the odds of the queen mating success but you can improve the numbers, simply by making more.  If you need 10 queens, graft 40 cells and make up 20 mating nucs. At the end of it you will get the 10 mated queens you want and if luck is on your side you may have some extras.  Those extras you can just pinch off, give away, or sell.  You can get more out of what you got.  The matter is in the methods of managing it.

You say are having problems grafting from that queen.  You also mention older combs.  There could be a viral load that is reducing successes. For example; Black Queen Cell Virus as just one possibility.   To improve chances try;   grafting into new plastic cups, makeup the cell builder with your newer fresher combs and bees from a different hive than the one you are grafting from.

Just a few ideas to chew on there.
Hope that helps, somehow.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 12:39:46 pm by TheHoneyPump »
Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2020, 12:27:43 pm »


bees from a different hive than the one you are grafting from.

Just a few ideas to chew on there.
Hope that helps, somehow.
Why does this matter?

I really do think the older combs present a potential issue, it's the one difference between this hive and the others I've had no trouble (I mean no particular trouble) propagating.


Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk


Online TheHoneyPump

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 790
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2020, 12:32:33 pm »
Because a the potential viral load mentioned will be carried by the bees that are feeding the queen larvae. ...

How far along are the grafts when they fail or are torn down?  How many days.
Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2020, 12:39:16 pm »
Because a the potential viral load mentioned will be carried by the bees that are feeding the queen larvae. ...

How far along are the grafts when they fail or are torn down?  How many days.
You can a big long "ooooooooh" from me.

So maybe,  if I think thos is an issue, I would consider moving queen mother into ... a swarm-populated colony with new combs?

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk