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Author Topic: Hard to duplicate  (Read 866 times)

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2020, 12:44:45 pm »
I think you are well on track towards success now.
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Online iddee

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2020, 01:52:11 pm »
"bees from a different hive than the one you are grafting from."

""Why does this matter?""

How many more queens could you raise from your favorite hive if you use support bees from other hives than you could by using her own bees before decimating your favorite hive?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline yes2matt

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2020, 07:39:19 pm »
I did it! Finally! 

I've got half of these transferred to mating nucs, half with roller cages on. They're not giants but they'll get some nucs started.

AND I made a split my usual way a month ago, and I checked the mating nucs today and they are both Q+    .. one of them the largest queen I've ever had. So I got her genes to carry forward.

Maybe the difference was griping on the internet. ;)

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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2020, 07:53:56 pm »
That is awesome!!!! Congats! :grin: :grin: :grin: :cool:
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Online Nock

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2020, 08:59:05 pm »
Nice. Congrats.

Offline Kwalt

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2020, 09:26:04 pm »
Congrats. I?ve just put my first ever grafted cells in mating nucs Tuesday. It?s a good feeling.


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Online iddee

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2020, 10:00:16 pm »
Good to hear.  Keep up the good work.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2020, 09:02:53 am »
Congratulations Matt. They look really good.
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Offline yes2matt

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2020, 01:30:21 pm »
Update:  aaaauuughghgh.
This feels ridiculous. I got into the mating nucs today. I had put the cells directly into them. Out of eight mating nucs, one queen cell emerged correctly. One looked like it had been torn open from the side (I didn't wait long enough before putting it in and they tore it down) the others ... just didn't ever emerge. They are just capped QCs still.

When I tore one open here's a fully developed bee, although shrunken, and kind of blackish like she froze. But no way she froze, I didnt lose any other larvae.

I had five I had left in the rearing hive but put roller cages on. They are the same.

I am frustrated.

By the time I get this right I will have done it every kind of wrong possible.

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Online iddee

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2020, 01:44:16 pm »
In the 16 day queen development, when did you move them? If on the 10th thru the 13th, you probably shook them to death. You have to move them on the 8th or 9th day, as soon as they are capped, or wait until the 14th day or later. They are too fragile to move in between.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline yes2matt

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2020, 02:01:29 pm »
In the 16 day queen development, when did you move them? If on the 10th thru the 13th, you probably shook them to death. You have to move them on the 8th or 9th day, as soon as they are capped, or wait until the 14th day or later. They are too fragile to move in between.
I was just thinking that for that previous picture I shook the bees off to get the picture. I grafted on the Saturday and took the picture on Saturday so that would have been ... day 11 if I got the right larvae.

<insert choice language here>

I'm not giving up tho.

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Offline CoolBees

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2020, 04:06:05 pm »
... Out of eight mating nucs, one queen cell emerged correctly. One looked like it had been torn open from the side (I didn't wait long enough before putting it in and they tore it down) the others ... just didn't ever emerge. They are just capped QCs still.

...

I feel for you. I had that happen on my 1st round of splits this season. In my case, I think I got too many field bees in the splits, and not enough nurse bees ... so the field bees went home and the QC'S got cold and died. Queens inside were fully developed and un-hatched. I think it was: 7 didn't hatch, and only one returned from mating - out of 10.

On my next 3 rounds, I pulled all the brood from strong hives above an excluder to get strictly nurse bees. I shook these off for the splits. Success rate went to 80%.

... I definitely share your frustration - you had some beautiful QC'S!
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Online iddee

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2020, 04:13:12 pm »
I never shake a QC. I use smoke and and brush to get the bees off, and am satisfied with a "most" removal. There are usually a few left on the frame.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2020, 04:54:40 pm »
+1 to iddee.   Never ever shake queen cells.  They have a very thin delicate umbillcal from the larvae to the jelly.  Disturb that and she is done.
Second thing, consider my previous post.   Dark shrivelled cells that do not emerge = BQCV, Black Queen Cell Virus. The bees building and feeding the cells have to be the most healthy and youngest bees in your apiary.  If the attempts from the same group repeatedly fail, change the bees, not the method.


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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2020, 04:56:38 pm »
Smoke, yes, brush, yes,,, lay the frame of queen cells on their side to smoke the bees off, no.  Like ID said, the larva go thur a very delicate stage just after capped.  So delicate, I don?t touch nor lay on side.  A couple of days pre-emerging, the larva has pupated and hardened some what, not so delicate.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2020, 05:10:27 pm »
About queen larva feeding: may be more info than you desire;

Queen Larva feed in a circular motion constantly feeding forward in the royal jelly.  They do not poop, clean their are.  The queen larva contain all excrements in a sack which is discarded after hatching.

There are folks that eat royal jelly available at health food stores and online.  Rest assured the royal jelly is clean, at least in the queen cell the jelly is clean.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline yes2matt

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2020, 05:28:27 pm »
+1 to iddee.   Never ever shake queen cells.  They have a very thin delicate umbillcal from the larvae to the jelly.  Disturb that and she is done.
Second thing, consider my previous post.   Dark shrivelled cells that do not emerge = BQCV, Black Queen Cell Virus. The bees building and feeding the cells have to be the most healthy and youngest bees in your apiary.  If the attempts from the same group repeatedly fail, change the bees, not the method.
I didn't ignore your post, I had already grafted this batch. I've got a hive just swarmed and several in five-frame boxes.  So while that doesn't guarantee virus free they'll at least be a fresh(er) batch.  I'll have another go next weekend.

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Offline JurassicApiary

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2020, 05:53:01 pm »
About queen larva feeding: may be more info than you desire;

Queen Larva feed in a circular motion constantly feeding forward in the royal jelly.  They do not poop, clean their are.  The queen larva contain all excrements in a sack which is discarded after hatching.

There are folks that eat royal jelly available at health food stores and online.  Rest assured the royal jelly is clean, at least in the queen cell the jelly is clean.
Never too much information to share!  Some of us truly are geeky beeks that enjoy understanding the why?s and how?s in minute detail.  ;)

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2020, 06:34:11 pm »
About queen larva feeding: may be more info than you desire;

Queen Larva feed in a circular motion constantly feeding forward in the royal jelly.  They do not poop, clean their are.  The queen larva contain all excrements in a sack which is discarded after hatching.

There are folks that eat royal jelly available at health food stores and online.  Rest assured the royal jelly is clean, at least in the queen cell the jelly is clean.
Never too much information to share!  Some of us truly are geeky beeks that enjoy understanding the why?s and how?s in minute detail.  ;)

I agree with Jurassic in that I like to know what is what also. keep the good information coming, and thanks.

Offline JojoBeeBoy

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Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2020, 01:33:48 pm »
I know nothing. Let's get that established. As I was scrolling down and saw your pic with the QCs on their side I was reminded of Kaymon Reynolds' video talking about gentle brushing (straight down) and not even inverting them. Keeping them as perpendicular to the ground as is reasonably possible. I appreciate you continuing to update. I've done some shifting of swarm cells, but never grafted queens. Keep us posted. thanks