Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Hard to duplicate  (Read 1278 times)

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Hard to duplicate
« on: April 17, 2020, 10:15:48 pm »
I've got my "best" queen, from 2018, made honey then, lots of honey last year, biggest hive this year on track to make honey again.  Ideal brood pattern. Gentle, I can push them around with my finger. Doing something right about mites.

But I can't seem to raise her daughters to queens. Grafts dont take or get torn down. "OTS"-style splits,  they only raise one QC per frame, and then when I put them into nucs they don't come back.

Two rounds of failing to raise this Q's daughters failed last year and one so far this year. All the same methods,  same time, same yard, different queen-mother, successful.

What gives?  Have you had this before? Is it maybe some genetic predisposition against raising daughters?

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

" The flu was rampant and we wore flu masks. " -- Jay Smith, _Better Queens_

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2020, 10:43:00 pm »
A genetic disposition against rearing offspring would be highly unusual.   Never met a queen I could not graft from.  Grafting can be tricky: chill, age larva, rotating larva is lethal, prescented cups, number of nurse bees and available food, absence of queen pheromones, wet graft, dry graft, larva injured while grafting, larva drown in jelly, sepsis[bacteria]...
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline TheHoneyPump

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 959
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2020, 01:13:00 am »
Ya.  Everything Van said.
Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz

Offline CoolBees

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2020, 11:11:34 am »
A genetic disposition against rearing offspring would be highly unusual.   Never met a queen I could not graft from.  Grafting can be tricky: chill, age larva, rotating larva is lethal, prescented cups, number of nurse bees and available food, absence of queen pheromones, wet graft, dry graft, larva injured while grafting, larva drown in jelly, sepsis[bacteria]...

Mr Van, you make grafting sound so easy! ... makes me want to jump right in!  :grin: :cheesy:

In all seriousness, I've always appreciated your extensive knowledge. The only way you could spell out the many pitfalls in Grafting, is because you've faced each of them in great depth. Thank you for your always-valuable input.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2020, 07:52:46 am »
Ok I'll try again.

I did some reading up.

Other things that are different about this hive than just the queen:
> older comb. They don't really have fresh-wax worker combs to make QCs when I split them regularly. So they're working harder to make fewer QCs.
> my starter. Since this has been the strongest hive in the yard and the main honey maker these years, I haven't been making maybe as strong if a starter as I could, because I want to keep the strong hive strong.

So I'm going to try again.

How long does the starter need to be queenless before they're ready to accept grafts?

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

" The flu was rampant and we wore flu masks. " -- Jay Smith, _Better Queens_

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 11434
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2020, 08:14:07 am »
Matt,
2 hours. After that they are thinking about making their own queen cells.
Jim Altmiller

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10136
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2020, 08:16:12 am »
I would put a frame of foundation or new drawn comb into the center of the brood nest. Then graft from it as soon as the first eggs hatch.

I would make a starter nuc that they had to beard, as they couldn't all get in, using bees from another hive. Make it in the morning and graft that afternoon.
Six to eight days later, check all other frames for wild queen cells and remove them. Place the capped, grafted cells in protective cages, and in incubator if available. If not, leave in nuc until day 14, then harvest.

As Jim posted while I was typing, 2 hours is sufficient, but anytime the same day or the next will do.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6164
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2020, 08:58:54 am »
Ok I'll try again.

You are working too hard Matt.  Just split the hive in half and walk away.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2020, 09:24:45 am »
Ok I'll try again.

You are working too hard Matt.  Just split the hive in half and walk away.
http://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/traffic.libsyn.com/beekeepingtodaypodcast/Developing_A_Breeding_Program_with_Sue_Cobey_Tim_Lawrence_Steve_Sheppard__S2_E24.mp3?dest-id=715151

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/

No.

I think my bee yards could be more productive.

And I like to explore.

Next step for me is learning to consistently raise queens from my selection of hives.

I've really been successful making splits in the past, and also have grafted queens, but never from this hive (my best one!) And it's frustrating,  and I'm not going to give up yet. Also, with just making splits, if I get 75 or less percent return mated, I'm only breaking even on the bees.

So I'm going to figure this out. If I don't like the results or if it really is too much work, I'll go back to just splitting every hive and letting the chips fall.

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

" The flu was rampant and we wore flu masks. " -- Jay Smith, _Better Queens_

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10136
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2020, 10:04:59 am »
First, read this.............

http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

Second, forget 75%. Consider 50% successful.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 5024
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2020, 11:25:08 pm »
First, read this.............

http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

Second, forget 75%. Consider 50% successful.

I appreciate this article iddee.
Thanks
Phillip Hall
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6164
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2020, 08:38:02 am »
Second, forget 75%. Consider 50% successful.

If a species had a 50% success at propagation it wouldn't exist.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10136
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2020, 09:51:00 am »
If fish had a 2% success rate, it would fill the waterways and all die. Different for different species of animals.

10 to 20 swarm cells for one queen. What percentage is that in a natural setting.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2020, 09:52:36 am »
Second, forget 75%. Consider 50% successful.

If a species had a 50% success at propagation it wouldn't exist.
That's why they throw afterswarms.

Seeley's research says 20% survivability of new swarms the year after. 80% of parent colonies. 

We gotta do a little better than nature ;)

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

" The flu was rampant and we wore flu masks. " -- Jay Smith, _Better Queens_

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10136
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2020, 10:06:41 am »
I always thought 50% was just a tad better than 20%. Am I wrong in my math?   :shocked:   :cheesy:
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 5024
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2020, 10:55:23 am »
I always thought 50% was just a tad better than 20%. Am I wrong in my math?   :shocked:   :cheesy:


YES

lol J/k. I could not resist.   :cheesy:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline TheHoneyPump

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 959
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Hard to duplicate
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2020, 11:47:45 am »
Walk away splits are easy.  They work.  HOWEVER ... they take away alot of power (bees) from main hive and you get nothing back for well over a month ... that is IF she is successful.  If if it fails then a month has gone by, you are back to the beginning with a box of old worn out bees near end of life. You have basically just killed a box of bees in a slow agonizing way.  I will never ever do a split without a mated queen in my pocket. 

It does not take much to get a queen mated.  2 frames of bees and resources will look after her.  I set 2 sometimes 3 ripe cells about to emerge in each 2 frame nuc. The nuc bees get to pick one or the queens will just fight it out the next morning. After I have a successful laying queen in the 2F nuc, only then will I plan my split. This method minimizes the impact to the main hives and keeps them as productive as possible for as long as possible.

Best is to graft cells and time the calendar to makeup the nucs 2 days before the cells will emerge.  Let the nuc sit queenless for half day.  Make the nuc in the morning.  Put the cells in at evening. The benefits are
- mating nucs minimize the bees taken from the main hive(s) so they stay powerful for as long as possible
- the mating nuc has a laying queen in 11 to 20 days instead of 35+ days of a walk away split

The success rate of the mating is entirely up to nature. That is out of control.  What you do have control over is timing of when and how much to be weakening the main hive and how quickly the new hive will be established. You cannot improve the odds of the queen mating success but you can improve the numbers, simply by making more.  If you need 10 queens, graft 40 cells and make up 20 mating nucs. At the end of it you will get the 10 mated queens you want and if luck is on your side you may have some extras.  Those extras you can just pinch off, give away, or sell.  You can get more out of what you got.  The matter is in the methods of managing it.

You say are having problems grafting from that queen.  You also mention older combs.  There could be a viral load that is reducing successes. For example; Black Queen Cell Virus as just one possibility.   To improve chances try;   grafting into new plastic cups, makeup the cell builder with your newer fresher combs and bees from a different hive than the one you are grafting from.

Just a few ideas to chew on there.
Hope that helps, somehow.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 12:39:46 pm by TheHoneyPump »
Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2020, 12:27:43 pm »


bees from a different hive than the one you are grafting from.

Just a few ideas to chew on there.
Hope that helps, somehow.
Why does this matter?

I really do think the older combs present a potential issue, it's the one difference between this hive and the others I've had no trouble (I mean no particular trouble) propagating.


Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

" The flu was rampant and we wore flu masks. " -- Jay Smith, _Better Queens_

Offline TheHoneyPump

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 959
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2020, 12:32:33 pm »
Because a the potential viral load mentioned will be carried by the bees that are feeding the queen larvae. ...

How far along are the grafts when they fail or are torn down?  How many days.
Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2020, 12:39:16 pm »
Because a the potential viral load mentioned will be carried by the bees that are feeding the queen larvae. ...

How far along are the grafts when they fail or are torn down?  How many days.
You can a big long "ooooooooh" from me.

So maybe,  if I think thos is an issue, I would consider moving queen mother into ... a swarm-populated colony with new combs?

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

" The flu was rampant and we wore flu masks. " -- Jay Smith, _Better Queens_

Offline TheHoneyPump

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 959
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2020, 12:44:45 pm »
I think you are well on track towards success now.
Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10136
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2020, 01:52:11 pm »
"bees from a different hive than the one you are grafting from."

""Why does this matter?""

How many more queens could you raise from your favorite hive if you use support bees from other hives than you could by using her own bees before decimating your favorite hive?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2020, 07:39:19 pm »
I did it! Finally! 

I've got half of these transferred to mating nucs, half with roller cages on. They're not giants but they'll get some nucs started.

AND I made a split my usual way a month ago, and I checked the mating nucs today and they are both Q+    .. one of them the largest queen I've ever had. So I got her genes to carry forward.

Maybe the difference was griping on the internet. ;)

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

" The flu was rampant and we wore flu masks. " -- Jay Smith, _Better Queens_

Offline CoolBees

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2020, 07:53:56 pm »
That is awesome!!!! Congats! :grin: :grin: :grin: :cool:
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Nock

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 574
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2020, 08:59:05 pm »
Nice. Congrats.

Offline Kwalt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2020, 09:26:04 pm »
Congrats. I?ve just put my first ever grafted cells in mating nucs Tuesday. It?s a good feeling.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10136
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2020, 10:00:16 pm »
Good to hear.  Keep up the good work.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 11434
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2020, 09:02:53 am »
Congratulations Matt. They look really good.
Jim Altmiller

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2020, 01:30:21 pm »
Update:  aaaauuughghgh.
This feels ridiculous. I got into the mating nucs today. I had put the cells directly into them. Out of eight mating nucs, one queen cell emerged correctly. One looked like it had been torn open from the side (I didn't wait long enough before putting it in and they tore it down) the others ... just didn't ever emerge. They are just capped QCs still.

When I tore one open here's a fully developed bee, although shrunken, and kind of blackish like she froze. But no way she froze, I didnt lose any other larvae.

I had five I had left in the rearing hive but put roller cages on. They are the same.

I am frustrated.

By the time I get this right I will have done it every kind of wrong possible.

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

" The flu was rampant and we wore flu masks. " -- Jay Smith, _Better Queens_

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10136
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2020, 01:44:16 pm »
In the 16 day queen development, when did you move them? If on the 10th thru the 13th, you probably shook them to death. You have to move them on the 8th or 9th day, as soon as they are capped, or wait until the 14th day or later. They are too fragile to move in between.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2020, 02:01:29 pm »
In the 16 day queen development, when did you move them? If on the 10th thru the 13th, you probably shook them to death. You have to move them on the 8th or 9th day, as soon as they are capped, or wait until the 14th day or later. They are too fragile to move in between.
I was just thinking that for that previous picture I shook the bees off to get the picture. I grafted on the Saturday and took the picture on Saturday so that would have been ... day 11 if I got the right larvae.

<insert choice language here>

I'm not giving up tho.

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

" The flu was rampant and we wore flu masks. " -- Jay Smith, _Better Queens_

Offline CoolBees

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1210
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2020, 04:06:05 pm »
... Out of eight mating nucs, one queen cell emerged correctly. One looked like it had been torn open from the side (I didn't wait long enough before putting it in and they tore it down) the others ... just didn't ever emerge. They are just capped QCs still.

...

I feel for you. I had that happen on my 1st round of splits this season. In my case, I think I got too many field bees in the splits, and not enough nurse bees ... so the field bees went home and the QC'S got cold and died. Queens inside were fully developed and un-hatched. I think it was: 7 didn't hatch, and only one returned from mating - out of 10.

On my next 3 rounds, I pulled all the brood from strong hives above an excluder to get strictly nurse bees. I shook these off for the splits. Success rate went to 80%.

... I definitely share your frustration - you had some beautiful QC'S!
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10136
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2020, 04:13:12 pm »
I never shake a QC. I use smoke and and brush to get the bees off, and am satisfied with a "most" removal. There are usually a few left on the frame.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline TheHoneyPump

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 959
  • Work Hard. Play Harder.
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2020, 04:54:40 pm »
+1 to iddee.   Never ever shake queen cells.  They have a very thin delicate umbillcal from the larvae to the jelly.  Disturb that and she is done.
Second thing, consider my previous post.   Dark shrivelled cells that do not emerge = BQCV, Black Queen Cell Virus. The bees building and feeding the cells have to be the most healthy and youngest bees in your apiary.  If the attempts from the same group repeatedly fail, change the bees, not the method.


Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz Bees Buzz

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2020, 04:56:38 pm »
Smoke, yes, brush, yes,,, lay the frame of queen cells on their side to smoke the bees off, no.  Like ID said, the larva go thur a very delicate stage just after capped.  So delicate, I don?t touch nor lay on side.  A couple of days pre-emerging, the larva has pupated and hardened some what, not so delicate.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2020, 05:10:27 pm »
About queen larva feeding: may be more info than you desire;

Queen Larva feed in a circular motion constantly feeding forward in the royal jelly.  They do not poop, clean their are.  The queen larva contain all excrements in a sack which is discarded after hatching.

There are folks that eat royal jelly available at health food stores and online.  Rest assured the royal jelly is clean, at least in the queen cell the jelly is clean.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 396
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2020, 05:28:27 pm »
+1 to iddee.   Never ever shake queen cells.  They have a very thin delicate umbillcal from the larvae to the jelly.  Disturb that and she is done.
Second thing, consider my previous post.   Dark shrivelled cells that do not emerge = BQCV, Black Queen Cell Virus. The bees building and feeding the cells have to be the most healthy and youngest bees in your apiary.  If the attempts from the same group repeatedly fail, change the bees, not the method.
I didn't ignore your post, I had already grafted this batch. I've got a hive just swarmed and several in five-frame boxes.  So while that doesn't guarantee virus free they'll at least be a fresh(er) batch.  I'll have another go next weekend.

Sent from my SM-J737P using Tapatalk

" The flu was rampant and we wore flu masks. " -- Jay Smith, _Better Queens_

Offline JurassicApiary

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 185
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2020, 05:53:01 pm »
About queen larva feeding: may be more info than you desire;

Queen Larva feed in a circular motion constantly feeding forward in the royal jelly.  They do not poop, clean their are.  The queen larva contain all excrements in a sack which is discarded after hatching.

There are folks that eat royal jelly available at health food stores and online.  Rest assured the royal jelly is clean, at least in the queen cell the jelly is clean.
Never too much information to share!  Some of us truly are geeky beeks that enjoy understanding the why?s and how?s in minute detail.  ;)

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 5024
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2020, 06:34:11 pm »
About queen larva feeding: may be more info than you desire;

Queen Larva feed in a circular motion constantly feeding forward in the royal jelly.  They do not poop, clean their are.  The queen larva contain all excrements in a sack which is discarded after hatching.

There are folks that eat royal jelly available at health food stores and online.  Rest assured the royal jelly is clean, at least in the queen cell the jelly is clean.
Never too much information to share!  Some of us truly are geeky beeks that enjoy understanding the why?s and how?s in minute detail.  ;)

I agree with Jurassic in that I like to know what is what also. keep the good information coming, and thanks.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline JojoBeeBoy

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 83
  • Gender: Male
    • @joebeewhisperer on Instagram
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2020, 01:33:48 pm »
I know nothing. Let's get that established. As I was scrolling down and saw your pic with the QCs on their side I was reminded of Kaymon Reynolds' video talking about gentle brushing (straight down) and not even inverting them. Keeping them as perpendicular to the ground as is reasonably possible. I appreciate you continuing to update. I've done some shifting of swarm cells, but never grafted queens. Keep us posted. thanks

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 6164
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Hard to duplicate
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2020, 09:04:55 am »

I am frustrated.
That only happens to people that try something new.  I know you are determined so I know you will succeed.  Trust me, I know how this works.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it