Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Swarm trap distance?  (Read 715 times)

Offline Nock

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Gender: Male
Swarm trap distance?
« on: January 30, 2020, 10:42:54 pm »
If you knew where a colony is living inside a tree. How far away from there tree would you place a trap?  Would you add two to area just in case?  Thanks

Offline Bob Wilson

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 354
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2020, 11:19:35 pm »
I read 300 yards in one place. Not too close, not too far. But you... You can't trust the internet. :grin:

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3534
  • North Mississippi
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2020, 11:59:26 pm »
Nock, I have seen videos where JP and Schawee have performed cutouts with 3 hives in the same house. Did these extra two come from the original house hive, or did they all come from a source further away at different times?  Maybe you can send JP or Schawee a PM asking their opinion. You might also ask Jeff at Jeff Horchoff Bees. He catches more swarms than anyone I know of.
Phillip

Offline CapnChkn

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 522
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2020, 03:23:15 am »
The consensus has been a quarter mile.  I catch swarms in old nuc boxes left in the beeyard though.  I would just put them around the colony about 100 yards in any direction.  If you use the right swarm trap, bait, and location, they will probably choose the trap over a hollow tree branch.  More than one will give them choices, and increase the odds they wont go into someone's soffit.

I've been trying to find an average for colonies in a square mile, and get answers from 7 to 200.  I can't really say, but Dr. Thomas Seeley gives even less per.  It seems the swarm will go out to look for an appropriate cavity within a comfortable range.

They will search for cavities as soon as the swarming urge hits.  They may circle around the bait hives for weeks, even more than a month while they get ready.  I am constantly fooled into thinking I have a swarm moved in, lower the trap, and discover half a dozen bees in it.  If they have the traps there, they will camp out in them to keep other swarms from taking them, and then they will vote on the best hive when they cluster.
"Thinking is like sin, them that doesn't is scairt of it, and them that does gets to liking it so much they can't quit!"  -Josh Billings.

Offline iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9775
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2020, 07:07:07 am »
They will choose what they think is the best home. It can be from a couple feet to a quarter mile. Seldom further. The more traps out, the better your chances.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline BAHBEEs

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 99
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2020, 05:48:19 pm »
Now...what about ideal height?  I have caught the ones I have caught remarkably close to the ground.  Not yet one from up high.

Offline MikeyN.C.

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2020, 06:26:21 pm »
I've not seen that that matters. I've caught on ground and 12 feet up. Just give them a good home.

Offline iddee

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 9775
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2020, 08:21:52 pm »
It is said 10 feet is best, but the bees don't always abide.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline CapnChkn

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 522
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2020, 09:03:49 pm »
I trap every year, and the height that gets me bees is about 10 feet up.  I spent 4 fruitless years here trying to catch at least one swarm, and I had decided to hang them from a french cleat I had rachet strapped to a straight trunk, as high as I thought comfortable.  That turned out to be about 5 1/2 feet.  I finally realized all I was getting in the traps were red wasps, brown widow spiders, and ants.

Since those critters like being closer to the ground, hanging them out of their comfort zone, and putting baits of grape jelly, and peanut butter mixed with borax in the hives, I got 5 swarms out of 6 traps last spring.  Using the same 6 traps, I caught 2 in 2014, 1 in 2015, 1 in 2016, 0 in 2017 and 2018.  Since I usually get around 66%, I was getting frustrated.

That is the one thing I did before 2014, tie a harness on the traps, attach a line, a rock to the free end, toss it over a branch, and pull it up.  The entrance can't spin around.  You want to secure the trap with the free rope, and tie it around the trunk of the tree to finish.

"Thinking is like sin, them that doesn't is scairt of it, and them that does gets to liking it so much they can't quit!"  -Josh Billings.

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1344
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2020, 10:32:55 pm »
This is all interesting to me.  I have never trapped bees.  Bet it is exciting to see the bees in the trap and realize your success.

Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Kwalt

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2020, 11:08:47 pm »


I caught 9 last year.  All of the traps were hung no higher than I could reach from the ground.

Kevin


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline Kwalt

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2020, 11:11:09 pm »



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1344
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2020, 11:57:14 pm »
KWalt, is the box a five frame nuc?
Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Kwalt

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2020, 12:08:11 am »
No. They?re bigger than a 5 frame nuc. 6 frames wide and about as deep as they are long. It?s not something you want to leave them in too long. I usually leave them for a week before transferring them into normal equipment.  I believe swarms are looking for a larger box than a nuc.

Kevin


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline Seeb

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Gender: Female
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2020, 08:29:41 am »
Kwalt - now that is impressive! 

Are you trapping beeks concerned about these bees bringing mites/etc into your bee yard? I've taken swarms, but they were usually mine or my neighbors. This looks like fun!
To plant a garden is to believe in tomorrow - Audrey Hepburn

The edge . . . there is no honest way to explain it, because the only people who really know where it is, are the ones who have gone over. ~ Hunter S Thompson

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1344
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2020, 11:38:39 am »
Mr. Kevin, in your pic standing you stand next to a hive: is that hive a long hive or a Kenya hive???  I can?t tell from the pic.  I have wanted to experience a long hive which to me, is a horizontal langstrof.  I can see advantages of a long hive.

Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Nock

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2020, 11:59:03 am »
What lure do y?all like using? 

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1344
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2020, 12:28:36 pm »
Nock, good question.  As stated earlier, I have never trapped.  So I am asking would honey work as a lure?

Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Kwalt

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2020, 12:49:33 pm »
I think the most important lure is a piece of old brood comb. I also use lemon grass oil or swarm commander on a cue tip, plus a drop at the entrance. They both work, I didn?t notice a difference. If the box used for a bait hive is new I rubbed the inside with propolis. I usually check them weekly and bring them home when I see them bringing in pollen.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline FatherMichael

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 309
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2020, 01:29:37 pm »
I think the most important lure is a piece of old brood comb. I also use lemon grass oil or swarm commander on a cue tip, plus a drop at the entrance. They both work, I didn?t notice a difference. If the box used for a bait hive is new I rubbed the inside with propolis. I usually check them weekly and bring them home when I see them bringing in pollen.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks, Kwalt.

This is so helpful!

Offline Kwalt

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2020, 01:35:18 pm »
As far as bringing mites or other diseases home, I guess I?m not concerned. All of the bees here have mites. They can be managed by the method of your choice. I haven?t had any issues with disease. None of my bees have pedigrees and all have open mated queens.

There are two feral hives in tree hollows within a mile of my house, they have been occupied for at least the last couple of years. One of my bait hive locations has a feral hive living in an old central heat furnace under a group of cedar trees. The home owner says it has been occupied for the three years he has owned the property. Healthy hives swarm.

You don?t have to know where a feral hive is to put up a bait hive. Not all of my locations were successful. I just put up a box and wait and see.  One bait hive was put in an area with no hives known to me, but I caught three swarms from the same tree there. It?s like fishing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 02:36:58 pm by Kwalt »

Offline Nock

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2020, 04:33:27 pm »
Anything in particular you look for In location?

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3534
  • North Mississippi
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2020, 04:46:15 pm »
Kwalt - now that is impressive! 

Are you trapping beeks concerned about these bees bringing mites/etc into your bee yard? I've taken swarms, but they were usually mine or my neighbors. This looks like fun!

Seeb a good question. I am thinking that if we treat our swarms or trapped bees before they have capped brood, we should have a huge upper hand in mite control of our new bees. In these scenarios the mites will have nowhere to hide. In the case of a swarm box catch, we can actually treat our bees (before) we bring them home. Of course precautions should be made in order to keep our new catch form leaving our grasp making sure the in the box queen can not leave or have an opportunity to do so. I feel certain that our experts here will chime in and give you more detailed advice. If you decide to try this I wish you successful results.
Blessings,
Phillip   



.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 05:21:46 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Kwalt

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • Gender: Male
Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2020, 05:05:17 pm »
1. Permission from the landowner.
2. Near a creek or river.
3. Morning sun with midday shade.
4. Across the road from someone?s swarming hives.

If you had the boxes I?d stick with number one and try them all. You?ll never know until you try. I try to spread them out no closer than every couple miles.

Avoid trees like the one in this picture. I don?t like poison ivy but the bees didn?t mind.
In my defense this was hung in early spring before this much foliage was visible.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3534
  • North Mississippi
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2020, 05:22:18 pm »
Kwalt - now that is impressive! 

Are you trapping beeks concerned about these bees bringing mites/etc into your bee yard? I've taken swarms, but they were usually mine or my neighbors. This looks like fun!

Seeb a good question. I am thinking that if we treat our swarms or trapped bees before they have capped brood, we should have a huge upper hand in mite control of our new bees. In these scenarios the mites will have nowhere to hide. In the case of a swarm box catch, we can actually treat our bees (before) we bring them home. Of course precautions should be made in order to keep our new catch form leaving our grasp making sure the in the box queen can not leave or have an opportunity to do so. I feel certain that our experts here will chime in and give you more detailed advice. If you decide to try this I wish you successful results.
Blessings,
Phillip   



Seeb let me add, I like to treat after dusk when most bees are home making sure to get more bang for my treatment. There are different opinions on this, this is the way I prefer.

Kwalt. Good stuff, thanks for posting.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 06:45:47 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Nock

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2020, 09:38:59 pm »
I had 4out last year with no luck. I think my main problem was I had foundation in all my frames. It was making my trap look smaller than it really was. This year I?m going to just put In starter strips. Change locations and try to put out a dz.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3534
  • North Mississippi
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2020, 10:47:05 pm »
I had 4out last year with no luck. I think my main problem was I had foundation in all my frames. It was making my trap look smaller than it really was. This year I?m going to just put In starter strips. Change locations and try to put out a dz.

Nock, I am no expert on this subject.  But I will for your sake share with you the following.  I have watched videos where a fellow puts out jars, filled with sugar water feed,turned upside down with small holes drilled in the caps just as if one was feeding bees boardman style. He puts out in several different locations, that he may choose. He likes locations that is close to a water source and close to a good clean flyways such as gas and electrical rightways. What he does is goes around placing these feed bottles strapped to trees when he thinks he is in a good location. He goes back in a couple days making his rounds and monitors these feed bottle set ups noting bees are indeed covering these and how much feed was taken at each location. From this data he decides where there is a good feral hive hotspot and places his traps accordingly.  He uses at least one comb of old brood comb and swarm commander in each catch box. Hope that helps you.
Phillip

Offline CoolBees

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1045
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2020, 10:52:44 pm »

Seeb let me add, I like to treat after dusk when most bees are home making sure to get more bang for my treatment. There are different opinions on this, this is the way I prefer.

Kwalt. Good stuff, thanks for posting.

Phillip - I observed in my hives, when I do OAV treatments in the early mornings or evenings when the bees are clustered, the mite drop is far less than when I do it midday. The only reason I've come up with, is that the field bees are clustered tight around the brood nest in the mornings and evenings, blocking much of the OAV from reaching the core nurse bees where the bulk of the phoretic mites are hanging out. Just food for thought.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3534
  • North Mississippi
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2020, 11:08:25 pm »

Seeb let me add, I like to treat after dusk when most bees are home making sure to get more bang for my treatment. There are different opinions on this, this is the way I prefer.

Kwalt. Good stuff, thanks for posting.

Phillip - I observed in my hives, when I do OAV treatments in the early mornings or evenings when the bees are clustered, the mite drop is far less than when I do it midday. The only reason I've come up with, is that the field bees are clustered tight around the brood nest in the mornings and evenings, blocking much of the OAV from reaching the core nurse bees where the bulk of the phoretic mites are hanging out. Just food for thought.

I am always anxious to hear your thoughts Alan, I thought of this very thing and went inside one of these heavy ''beed'' hives to check after one of these late evening hive treatments sessions and was happy to find the bees were completely covered with white power. From that point I had no fear. But let me tell you, you had better be dressed for battle with full suit and gloves! Getting in and out quick, as the bees do not like being disturbed after dusk!   lol .  I think one thing that helps is the bees get mad and fan when they are shut up and OAV is applied in this manner, If you listen closely you can hear the ROAR of their wings when applied. I theorize that this fanning helps even the more of getting an even distribution of OAV throughout the entire hive. Thank you for your comment.  Their is always more than one way to skin a cat. As I said earlier this is the way I do it. 
Blessings,
Phillip

 PS Let me add, So far I have not lost a hive to mites.


.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2020, 01:19:34 am by Ben Framed »

Offline Bob Wilson

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 354
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2020, 11:24:51 pm »
This thread brings up a question I have pondered often. Whether feral bees are more resistant to varroa than purchased bees. I suppose if the queen who swarmed into my box last spring was from some unknown beekeeper's purchased stock, and that eventually as she is superceded over the years, the new queens will pick up feral DNA.
It is still my plan to catch swarms, stay foundationless, and treatment free. I will let you know how my second year goes.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3534
  • North Mississippi
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2020, 11:27:02 pm »
This thread brings up a question I have pondered often. Whether feral bees are more resistant to varroa than purchased bees. I suppose if the queen who swarmed into my box last spring was from some unknown beekeeper's purchased stock, and that eventually as she is superceded over the years, the new queens will pick up feral DNA.
It is still my plan to catch swarms, stay foundationless, and treatment free. I will let you know how my second year goes.

Wishing you the best Bob. Let us know.

Offline Nock

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2020, 12:55:49 am »
I had 4out last year with no luck. I think my main problem was I had foundation in all my frames. It was making my trap look smaller than it really was. This year I?m going to just put In starter strips. Change locations and try to put out a dz.

Nock, I am no expert on this subject.  But I will for your sake share with you the following.  I have watched videos where a fellow puts out jars, filled with sugar water feed,turned upside down with small holes drilled in the caps just as if one was feeding bees boardman style. He puts out in several different locations, that he may choose. He likes locations that is close to a water source and close to a good clean flyways such as gas and electrical rightways. What he does is goes around placing these feed bottles strapped to trees when he thinks he is in a good location. He goes back in a couple days making his rounds and monitors these feed bottle set ups noting bees are indeed covering these and how much feed was taken at each location. From this data he decides where there is a good feral hive hotspot and places his traps accordingly.  He uses at least one comb of old brood comb and swarm commander in each catch box. Hope that helps you.
Phillip
That?s a great idea.

Offline Nock

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2020, 12:58:38 am »
This thread brings up a question I have pondered often. Whether feral bees are more resistant to varroa than purchased bees. I suppose if the queen who swarmed into my box last spring was from some unknown beekeeper's purchased stock, and that eventually as she is superceded over the years, the new queens will pick up feral DNA.
It is still my plan to catch swarms, stay foundationless, and treatment free. I will let you know how my second year goes.
That?s where I want to be as well one day. One reason why I?m wanting to catch feral bees. And eventually raise Queens from. Good luck.

Offline Seeb

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Gender: Female
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2020, 09:27:00 am »
Makes sense Phillip: "I am thinking that if we treat our swarms or trapped bees before they have capped brood, we should have a huge upper hand in mite control of our new bees. In these scenarios the mites will have nowhere to hide."

Your description of the video of the man walking power lines etc, putting out jars of sugar water prompted me to remember my brother checking his traps for critters before heading to school in the mornings. We would eat the rabbits he caught and a man down the road ate the possums. Bee trapping is not so different. I guess that's why it appeals to me.
To plant a garden is to believe in tomorrow - Audrey Hepburn

The edge . . . there is no honest way to explain it, because the only people who really know where it is, are the ones who have gone over. ~ Hunter S Thompson

Online William Bagwell

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • Gender: Male
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2020, 09:52:58 am »
Follow up to Bob's question. How many generations from the original swam do bees become truly feral?

Like others here hope to catch a swarm or three this spring. 99+% chance they will be from a neighbors hive and obviously not yet feral. Coworker is going to let me put one trap hive at his place. Only a few miles from here but he is at the base of a mountain so perhaps a better chance of ferals there. Unknown how many beekeepers / hives near him. Have at least two keepers close to me.

Also hope to someday be treatment free but realize how hard this will be. Looking at thermal as a backup plan so can at least start out and remain chemical free.

Made a deposit on a nuc of TF local survivors. However once I move them the 60 miles to here they may wind up 'treat less bees' rather than TF.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3534
  • North Mississippi
Re: Swarm trap distance?
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2020, 10:13:12 am »
Makes sense Phillip: "I am thinking that if we treat our swarms or trapped bees before they have capped brood, we should have a huge upper hand in mite control of our new bees. In these scenarios the mites will have nowhere to hide."

Your description of the video of the man walking power lines etc, putting out jars of sugar water prompted me to remember my brother checking his traps for critters before heading to school in the mornings. We would eat the rabbits he caught and a man down the road ate the possums. Bee trapping is not so different. I guess that's why it appeals to me.

Thank you for your reply Seeb, I need to apologize as I was not clear on walking the power lines, actually he drove around, finding such easy access places next to the roads and went from there but it is the same concept. I grew up in the country also and relate to your brothers trap line. Many country boys made good extra money by trapping his lines. It use to be that other animals were valuable as well. Mink, Coon fox, bobcat etc. thank you for sharing your memories of your brothers adventures.
Phillip