Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: OAV too hot?  (Read 1396 times)

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3974
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2020, 12:18:54 am »
All the above post are interesting to me. It is amazing how oxalic and formic are tied together chemically by temperature change.  As ParksMtnApiary pointed out, OAV turns into formic at 375 f or 190.556C;  Is this true?
If so, let's keep in mind 230C is above the oxalic threshold by several degrees, at 190.556C no longer oxalic but now converted into formic, yet 230 C is the required temperature to be effective by use of a vaporizer via Oxalic against mites. , so, that means the once OAV is no longer OAV when it reaches the 190.556C mark, but converted into fromic gas. Wouldn't it be more accurate from that point to rename it Formic vapor instead of Oxalic vapor? Which brings up another question, maybe it's this controlled state of formic that is killing the mites after all? And an asset to we beekeepers and our bees, Or at least a big part of it? Perhaps too hot is not to hot at all, but just right. 
:happy:



.


Phil, ya gotta add glycerol to the Oxalic acid to obtain Formic acid.  Oxalic acid sublimates at about 220C.  So just heating Oxalic acid yields Oxalic vapor unless one add glycerol.
Van

Thank you Mr Van. I understood this much from BAHBEEs post, that oxlic added with glycerol and extraction by steam
distillation, Formic acid can formed and retained.  I am not asking about formic acid, I am asking about formic gas. Two different forms. I have placed a PM to LJ the chemist and a member here hoping to hear his thoughts. Isn't this interesting? I thank each of you for your replies.
Blessings,
Phillip


Online van from Arkansas

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1499
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2020, 10:12:22 am »
LJ is a smart fella, much smarter than I.  I hope he answers.
Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3974
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2020, 10:40:35 am »
LJ is a smart fella, much smarter than I.  I hope he answers.
Van

I would not say that , nor do I think that Mr Van.  On one hand we have a renowned researcher and the other hand a chemist. Though related, not the same.  I was seeking LJ s input on this well before you posted. Go back and look and you will see that I ask here on this topic my reply number 8, I ask if Johno and LJ are the same person. That was after Parks posted his reply number 10 Where he quoted johno as saying do not believe all you read on the internet and went on to say 'heat required to boil off the water of crystalization and to change the state of the OA from solid to gas.  and remember, Parks already stated that Oxalic when heated to 375 f forms fromic. '' What he did not clarify was oxalic gas or formic gas. Is there such a thing as oxalic gas? I have never heard of oxalic gas, vapor yes, gas no.   Formic gas, yes I have heard of.  I am by no means a chemist or researcher, so I must listen carefully to you experts and your research in order to decipher. Let me quote parks statement once again and I will highlight.

Quoting Parks
Reply #10 on: January 23, 2020, 11:53:44 pm ?
Quote
''This is what John (inventor of Johnso easy vap) said when I asked him...... Hi Matt, yes there is a temperature controller and do not believe everything you hear or read on the internet.  Having said that, if you can get your oxalic acid to above 375 degrees F maybe you will break it down just like you will burn water if you put it into a container at 350 degrees F.  The temperature controller is set at 440 F and when the OA hits the bottom of the bowl the temperature dips to about 290 F due to the amount of latent heat required to boil off the water of crystalization and to change the state of the OA from solid to gas.  The high set point is to create a resevoir of heat to be available for the sublimation to take place in a short period of time.   Johno''

Blessings,
Phillip

PS Let ne add, and as you know I have the utmost respect for you and your opinions. This happens to be a very interesting subject to me. I am thinking others also?
Let me add one more point when water is boiled off, what does it turn into? Thats right steam. Remember we are not adding glycerol, but we are adding steam, (or converting to steam).  Therefore formic acid (liquid) can not be achieved, but formic gas? Maybe and most likely and probably. As you, I am patiently awaiting LJ s answer to my PM.



.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 11:04:46 am by Ben Framed »

Online The15thMember

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 886
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2020, 02:24:36 pm »
Since I like chemistry, I've been following this thread with interest.   I'm just going to kind of muse aloud here, just to make sure I understand your question, Phillip, and to see if anything I'm thinking may be helpful.  Know that I have never used an oxalic acid vaporizer, so hopefully I'm not misunderstanding how one works.  An oxalic acid vaporizer takes solid oxalic acid crystals and heats them so they change phase into a gas.  (Sidenote: This means the "vaporizer" is more accurately a "sublimator", since sublimation is the change in state from a solid directly to a gas.)  The oxalic acid gas then spreads around in the hive. 
   
While Oxalic "can" decompose to formic it is by far not its preferential pathway based on the energy required for it to do so.  It is far more energetically easy to decompose to CO2, CO and H2O. 

I take this statement to mean that after some length of time, the oxalic acid gas decomposes into carbon monoxide gas, carbon dioxide gas, and water gas.  Oxalic acid gas, under specific conditions and in the presence of the catalyst of glycerol CAN turn into formic gas.  However, in the case of using the vaporizer in a hive, it's highly unlikely that any significant amount of formic gas would be formed since the equation that forms formic gas is less energetically favorable than the equation that does not. 

PS Let ne add, and as you know I have the utmost respect for you and your opinions. This happens to be a very interesting subject to me. I am thinking others also?
Let me add one more point when water is boiled off, what does it turn into? Thats right steam. Remember we are not adding glycerol, but we are adding steam, (or converting to steam).  Therefore formic acid can not be achieved, but formic gas? Maybe and most likely and probably. As you, I am patiently awaiting LJ s answer to my PM.

Phillip, you seem to be making a clear distinction between "formic gas" and "formic acid".  The way I understand it, the formic acid is formic acid, no matter what state (solid, liquid, or gas) it is in, just like the steam from the water is chemically still water.  And I don't believe we are adding steam, we are getting steam when the oxalic crystals hit the hot metal and some of them decompose into water, CO, and CO2.

That's what I'm thinking.  Anybody agree or disagree?                     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online van from Arkansas

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1499
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2020, 03:27:03 pm »
Ms.Member, you cease to impress me.  Smart Lady you are.  Yes, sublimation is the correct word since OA solid converts to a OA gas.  Evaporation is liquid to a gas.  Freezing is liquid to solid.

There are three,3, states of matter: solid, liquid, gas.  All matter is one state or the another or in a transition state which last only a split second.  When matter changes state we call it: freezing, evaporation, or sublimation.

Ms. Member, I think you realize the above, I just coordinated the words a lil different.

Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online The15thMember

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 886
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2020, 04:22:15 pm »
Ms.Member, you cease to impress me.  Smart Lady you are.  Yes, sublimation is the correct word since OA solid converts to a OA gas.  Evaporation is liquid to a gas.  Freezing is liquid to solid.

There are three,3, states of matter: solid, liquid, gas.  All matter is one state or the another or in a transition state which last only a split second.  When matter changes state we call it: freezing, evaporation, or sublimation.

Ms. Member, I think you realize the above, I just coordinated the words a lil different.

Van
Thank you, Van!  I was blessed with an absolutely wonderful chemistry teacher in high school.  His name was Mr. Harmon, and he "learned" me good!  :cheesy:  He had the rare ability to take an abstract, non-visual concept like the atom, and make it accessible and understandable, mostly through analogy.  He was really funny too, which actually helped me remember a lot of what he taught.  He was my favorite teacher I ever had.  :cool:   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline seanconnery

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2020, 05:09:25 pm »
."..never cease to amaze" is what you meant?

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3974
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2020, 05:18:13 pm »
ParksMtnApiary read after about 375 degrees OA turns into formic acid.  Mr Van wrote
Formic acid when heated enough forms formaldehyde. Formaldehyde upon addition of oxygen forms Formic acid.
Since Formic has a flash point of 156.2 F, I am completely confused.  :grin:

Yes, you got it.

All the above post are interesting to me. It is amazing how oxalic and formic are tied together chemically by temperature change.  As ParksMtnApiary pointed out, OAV turns into formic at 375 f or 190.556C;  Is this true?
If so, let's keep in mind 230C is above the oxalic threshold by several degrees, at 190.556C no longer oxalic but now converted into formic, yet 230 C is the required temperature to be effective by use of a vaporizer via Oxalic against mites. , so, that means the once OAV is no longer OAV when it reaches the 190.556C mark, but converted into fromic gas. Wouldn't it be more accurate from that point to rename it Formic vapor instead of Oxalic vapor? Which brings up another question, maybe it's this controlled state of formic that is killing the mites after all? And an asset to we beekeepers and our bees, Or at least a big part of it? Perhaps too hot is not to hot at all, but just right. 
:happy:


Member, As I stated before, I am not a chemistry student. Though I did ask a basic chemistry question from the very start and I built on what Parks stated about oxalic turning into formic acid and carbon monoxide 375 f, converted is 190.556 C .
after the acknowledgement of Mr Van with a Yes you got it.  In my next post I went on to ask the question about parks statement, So again I asked, Is this true, and said IF it is  etc;
So I will ask once more, Is this statement accurate? Does or does not oxalic convert into formic at said temperature? If not then there is no more to discuss, if yes then that leaves the door wide open. lol
Phillip




.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 06:00:01 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3974
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2020, 05:18:49 pm »
."..never cease to amaze" is what you meant?

Yes I caught that also. lol

Online The15thMember

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 886
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2020, 07:13:42 pm »
Does or does not oxalic convert into formic at said temperature?
Not without glycerol.  That's how I read it anyway.  But I'm not a chem student either, so I am by no means sure that answer is correct.     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3974
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2020, 07:32:18 pm »
Does or does not oxalic convert into formic at said temperature?
Not without glycerol.  That's how I read it anyway.  But I'm not a chem student either, so I am by no means sure that answer is correct.   

Good enough for me. Lol I do know that OAV also converts from a crystal into a white power so to speak.  Pretty sure That is where the punch is anyway. This has been interesting. Thanks to all for your feedback.
Phillip

Offline BAHBEEs

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2020, 05:36:43 pm »
If you actually wanted to create Formic by simply heating...ie no glycerol...you would have to do in in a pressure vessel to keep the OA out of the vapor phase long enough to get it hot enough for any to form.  Add to this that it would STILL be only a small amount even in that scenario.  In a real world OVA system with no pressure containment at all, it just cannot get hot enough long enough.

Not to be picky (it is a trait of chemists...sorry), but there are in fact 4 states of matter not 3.  We always forget plasma because we think we don't see it that often.  Just look up at noon...plenty of it to see.

Barry

Online The15thMember

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 886
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2020, 05:54:28 pm »
Not to be picky (it is a trait of chemists...sorry), but there are in fact 4 states of matter not 3.  We always forget plasma because we think we don't see it that often.  Just look up at noon...plenty of it to see.
Then I must be a chemist, because I love being picky!  :cheesy:  I was literally going to mention plasma, but figured it was unnecessarily confusing to the conversation at hand.  And if we're being picky, there is also the 5th state of matter, the Bose-Einstein condensate, but I don't think that exists outside a laboratory.             
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online van from Arkansas

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1499
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2020, 09:53:53 am »
Plasma is the transition state,  I did mention.  However man can not maintain nor control the transition state very long...

Plasma has a common definition which is the product of a lazer destruction beam, ablation lazer, which is known as a gas, one of the three states of matter.


« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 10:23:25 am by van from Arkansas »
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline BAHBEEs

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2020, 11:56:35 am »
Gonna have to somewhat disagree... Plasma is a full on state of nature.  It has some similarities to a gas, but is not a gas.  It is a "gas" of Free Ions, and that by definition makes it not a "gas" but a Plasma.  It consists of atoms that have had some electrons removed, and those electrons in a free state all slinging around in space.  So aside from the fact that their constituent particles fly around in space freely like a gas does...not a gas.  In some really important ways it actually behaves more like a liquid solution (salt water is similarly a mixture of ions for example), but at a far higher energy state.

From the office of the picky chemist ;)

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3974
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2020, 12:16:56 pm »
Gonna have to somewhat disagree... Plasma is a full on state of nature.  It has some similarities to a gas, but is not a gas.  It is a "gas" of Free Ions, and that by definition makes it not a "gas" but a Plasma.  It consists of atoms that have had some electrons removed, and those electrons in a free state all slinging around in space.  So aside from the fact that their constituent particles fly around in space freely like a gas does...not a gas.  In some really important ways it actually behaves more like a liquid solution (salt water is similarly a mixture of ions for example), but at a far higher energy state.

From the office of the picky chemist ;)

Hum I may have more to say later also when you three get this scientific and chemical part sorted out. BAHBEES I appreciate that you are a picky chemist and I have went back and did my own research and you have been pretty much spot on in your way of thinking. As I stated, I will say more when you three have had ample time to sort this part out and have responded to one another. lol again I say, isn?t this interesting!! Hang in there Parks you will soon get an accurate answer to you original post and question. All in fun and learning right folks? Lol



.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 08:56:38 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3974
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2020, 11:33:13 am »
@ ParksMtnApiary back to your original question (OAV too hot?)  I will make an honest effort to answer as best as I can come up with,.  Let me add, This is sure to be disputed. Lol

ScientificBeekeeping.com
Beekeeping Through the Eyes of a Biologist
Oxalic Acid: Heat Vaporization and Other Methods: Part 2 of 2 Parts
According to Randy Oliver in this article 

"How does oxalic vaporization work? In the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics we find that upon heating oxalic acid, the water of hydration boils off first, then at 315?F (157.222 ?C) the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372?F (188.889 ?C) any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon dioxide. The hot vapor rises within the confines of the hive bodies, and recondenses into tiny crystals that coat everything inside the hive. One of the problems with some vaporizers is that they get too hot too quickly and decompose, rather than evaporate the acid.

"

Can Randy be relied on as a competent source of information when it comes to bee research? I dare say yes. Even HP has directed me toward Randys work for information. The man (Randy) has dedicated , I can only dare guess, most of his life to bee research. He has researched the problem of dealing with mites extensively. There are others who make the same claims as Randy almost word for word as quoting from the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. Can this book be relied of for chemist for a quick reference to sure answers? Is this hand book and Randys reference accurate? I would certainly hope so. Have I misunderstood Randys above statement? Very possibly but seems pretty clear to me.

Why is Randys findings so important pertaining to OAV, or should be very important to we beekeepers? I will say because there are too many beekeepers losing hives to mites. Not just because of possible (too hot) set vaporizers but the treatment schedule in which OAV is applied I am thinking.
We are blessed with some very smart and brilliant minded members here at beemaster, Yet even these well educated folks are not Immuned from the destruction of the mite labeled as VARROA DESTRUCTOR. Mites are a silent-deadly, problem killer of our bees and should not be taken lightly or taken for granted by anyone, including myself.

If we go back to Beeboy01s topic that he posted here a year or so ago, (where he conducted an intensive experiment), we will find that he had a severe mite problem hive. We will find even when he used OAV administered properly, (cycle wise, schedule wise), he still had a severe mite problem with this hive for quite some time and a rough battle before finally getting things under control. Another beekeeper, now becoming famous on YouTube here in America, experienced similar results as our Beeboy01 by experimentation and sharing a short video series on his one particular hive . Could it be that a small reason or perhaps even a large reason was because their vaporizer was set to hot rendering a percentage of decomposed OAV to no effect? Again according to Randy Oliver, that can happen..  The Beeboy01 experiment was a real eye opener for me!!!

For what I am saying, and about to say is sure to be rejected even further by some of my friends, fellow beekeepers, and members here but that is ok. One can accept or reject these thoughts stemming from Randys facts as they see fit.  I am simply sharing my thoughts and theories in an attempt to help. My mistake on this topic was asking about the degree of effective formic when reached as OAV is decomposed at 372f to formic and carbon dioxide and suggestion this fromic to continue to aid our bees. Unfortunately my thoughts on these decomposed components took away from what was the important question by you Parks leaving the original question that you ask lost in the shuffle. I apologize to you Parks for that.


Now Parks back to your original post and question. 

I quote; 

"I am looking into Johno easy vap for OAV treatments. Currently using OA dribble method and wanting to speed up the process. Alternate with MAQS. My question is a lot of the vaporizers are getting up to 400-450 degrees F. I?ve read after about 375 degrees OA turns into formic acid and carbon monoxide. Does this hurt the effectiveness of treatment or health of bees? MAQS is formic acid. Anyway, I?ve seen some beeks say this is bad. I think the easy vap and the pro vap all get into the 400-450 deg range. Any help appreciated


"
Your answer Parks according Randy Olivers paper and his information he provided from the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. Say Yes OAV can get to hot,. again quoting Randy "problems with some vaporizers is that they get too hot too quickly and decompose, rather than evaporate"  The good news for your JphnO vaporizer is No, according to JohnOs answer to you in your reply 10. Because that particular brand drops quickly below the threshold to proper sublimation. Leaving Any and all remaining OAV in the proper description of Randy and his chemical book source.
Your reply 10 quoting JohnO

"The temperature controller is set at 440 F and when the OA hits the bottom of the bowl the temperature dips to about 290 F"
That 290f Parks is 143.333? Celsius and well below the decomposition temperature. So remaining OAV is well within the range of sublimation and decomposition.  


But what about the other vaporizers which may also be equipped with a very high initial heat source which may also employ a sealed top, and an added aluminum heat retainer in the Bottom of the cooking pot? Does the temperature drop as quickly as yours? Some of these types have an added metal heat retainer in the bottom just for this purpose of holding the temp as steady as possible and close to the PID set temperature as possible. To retain the set temperature of 230C as long as possible.   Let?s remember what Randy said  At 315?F (157.222 ?C) the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372?F (188.889 ?C)  ANY remaining OAV WILL decompose!  Now let me add , any decomposed OAV will not benefit our bees.  The question now is for a mathematician. What percentage of OAV is lost to decomposition? This lost percentage will vary from applicator to applicator  depending on where the PID is set.  I was hoping my theory of formic decomposing would benefit our bees.  One of our experts here says not enough formic is developed in this fashion to help.  So I suppose whatever is lost is equal to junk mail lol ? Can vaporizers which start off with a very high heat and equipped with heat retainer bottom still be effective?  Sure they can and are if the PID is set correctly.  Actually I personally prefer this type, maybe as much as the JohnO, a little more expensive but good stuff!  To see if a percentage is lost, and if so, what percentage, I recommend checking your heat banded, sealed top vaporizers through a few experimental cycles and take note of the temperature drop when oxalic is being processed in conjunction with the time cycle and temp between 315?F (157.222 ?C) and 372?F (188.889 ?C) opposed to when cycle ends. as described by Randy Oliver and the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics and do the math.  All a person has to do is set the PID accordingly. If necessary. Simple, easy, and should eliminate the (questionable) problem of QAV and (too hot).  I hope that helps you Parks and possibly others.

Phillip
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 01:32:12 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline MikeyN.C.

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2020, 06:30:43 pm »
Hey Phil, get bee's that don't need it. :smile:

Offline MikeyN.C.

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2020, 06:32:57 pm »
Ask me how I know !

Offline MikeyN.C.

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2020, 06:40:44 pm »
I've got a brand new varrox in th box I'll sale .