Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: OAV too hot?  (Read 1529 times)

Offline ParksMtnApiary

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Gender: Male
OAV too hot?
« on: January 23, 2020, 01:49:11 am »
I am looking into Johno easy vap for OAV treatments. Currently using OA dribble method and wanting to speed up the process. Alternate with MAQS. My question is a lot of the vaporizers are getting up to 400-450 degrees F. I?ve read after about 375 degrees OA turns into formic acid and carbon monoxide. Does this hurt the effectiveness of treatment or health of bees? MAQS is formic acid. Anyway, I?ve seen some beeks say this is bad. I think the easy vap and the pro vap all get into the 400-450 deg range. Any help appreciated

Offline CoolBees

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1203
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2020, 03:04:25 am »
I'm not sure. My Provap stabilizes at 446f (230c) degrees. Takes about 1 min per application, maybe a tad less.  Been using it for 2 yrs. As far as speed - I'm very happy with it. I use SBB's on some hives to measure/count mite drop so I can see/document effectiveness. It's effective - right on par with published data. ... as for being too hot? This is where I'm not sure, and I'd like to hearthe opinions from others ... for me, I've noticed reduced effectiveness when I apply OAV below 428f (220c) - Mite drop goes down imo below that temp, so I try to make sure the Provap is "up to temp"... but I'm no expert - just sharing thoughts/observations from 2 yrs with the Provap/5 yrs with hives/less than 20 hives. .... so, fwiw.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2020, 10:36:12 am »
Well said Mr. Cool, agreed with all you texted.

I use a provap 110V.  My provap stabilizes at 230C.  Initially the unit may reach 237-240 at most, but cools quickly to 230C.  I have used my provap 110 for years now.

Regarding Formic acid and Oxalic acid, although both are considered organic acids there is a lot of difference between the two acids.  Formic acid being more toxic and less forgiving.  This is reason for my use of Oxalic acid only.  Formic acid is a single carbon molecule whereas Oxalic acid is a double carbon molecule.  Without going into the boring chemistry, the double carbon molecule, Oxalic acid,  is less toxic, more forgiving.

Formic acid when heated enough forms formaldehyde.  Formaldehyde is absolutely deadly, on all life: yeast, fungus, mold, bacteria, cells of all types.  Thus formaldehyde is used in embalming process because the gas inhibits all living matter.  Formaldehyde is a single carbon molecule just as Formic acid.  Not the same though but close.

Formaldehyde upon addition of oxygen forms Formic acid.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4236
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2020, 12:17:00 pm »
ParksMtnApiary read after about 375 degrees OA turns into formic acid.  Mr Van wrote
Formic acid when heated enough forms formaldehyde. Formaldehyde upon addition of oxygen forms Formic acid.
Since Formic has a flash point of 156.2 F, I am completely confused.  :grin:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 11240
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2020, 09:05:41 pm »
My vaporizer is set to 230C. This temp is based on scientific testing done at Florida University.
I would not worry about the temp of your unit. The minute the oxalic acid touches it it will cool enough to be safe.
Jim Altmiller

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2020, 09:54:40 pm »
Agreed with Jim,

Mr. Ben.  Aldehydes are a specific chemical group, just as either, carboxlic acid, esters, alcohols.  That the study called organic chemistry the functional group is the either, ester, aldehydes etc.

Aldehydes are unstable, generally speaking and combine with oxygen to form more stable carboxylic acids.  The carboxlic acids can be heated and revert back to unstable aldehydes.  This is all generally speaking.  aldehydes can have a single carbon or many adjacent carbons which has effect.

This is a bit more detail than I believe intended for this thread.  Most will find the chemistry boring.  That is why I like what Jim said. The provap is set to 230c and works quite well.  I just plug the provap in and all is well.

Blessings

I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2020, 09:56:23 pm »
ParksMtnApiary read after about 375 degrees OA turns into formic acid.  Mr Van wrote
Formic acid when heated enough forms formaldehyde. Formaldehyde upon addition of oxygen forms Formic acid.
Since Formic has a flash point of 156.2 F, I am completely confused.  :grin:

Yes, you got it.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 10:09:27 pm »
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

I wished the alcohol was not in the pic.  However, I just wanted to show how similar aldehydes and carboxylic acids are.  Just add one oxygen and walla, carboxylic acid.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4236
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2020, 10:12:38 pm »

[/quote]
ParksMtnApiary read after about 375 degrees OA turns into formic acid.  Mr Van wrote
Formic acid when heated enough forms formaldehyde. Formaldehyde upon addition of oxygen forms Formic acid.
Since Formic has a flash point of 156.2 F, I am completely confused.  :grin:

Yes, you got it.

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]



Yes Sir, That clears it up for sure.  I think I have it now!!    lol .   :wink:  j/k
Im not even close to having it. lol
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4236
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2020, 10:52:57 pm »
All the above post are interesting to me. It is amazing how oxalic and formic are tied together chemically by temperature change.  As ParksMtnApiary pointed out, OAV turns into formic at 375 f or 190.556C;  Is this true?
If so, let's keep in mind 230C is above the oxalic threshold by several degrees, at 190.556C no longer oxalic but now converted into formic, yet 230 C is the required temperature to be effective by use of a vaporizer via Oxalic against mites. , so, that means the once OAV is no longer OAV when it reaches the 190.556C mark, but converted into fromic gas. Wouldn't it be more accurate from that point to rename it Formic vapor instead of Oxalic vapor? Which brings up another question, maybe it's this controlled state of formic that is killing the mites after all? And an asset to we beekeepers and our bees, Or at least a big part of it? Perhaps too hot is not to hot at all, but just right. 
:happy:



.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 11:30:53 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline ParksMtnApiary

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2020, 11:53:44 pm »
This is what John (inventor of Johnso easy vap) said when I asked him...... Hi Matt, yes there is a temperature controller and do not believe everything you hear or read on the internet.  Having said that, if you can get your oxalic acid to above 375 degrees F maybe you will break it down just like you will burn water if you put it into a container at 350 degrees F.  The temperature controller is set at 440 F and when the OA hits the bottom of the bowl the temperature dips to about 290 F due to the amount of latent heat required to boil off the water of crystalization and to change the state of the OA from solid to gas.  The high set point is to create a resevoir of heat to be available for the sublimation to take place in a short period of time.   Johno

Offline ifixoldhouses

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Gender: Male
  • 2nd year bkpr 14 hives
    • My Youtube
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2020, 07:41:47 am »
Anyone tried this one $140 made out of metal, I'd probably buy iy, but I have a provap 110 :smile:
youtube.com BackyardBeesNC

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4236
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2020, 10:14:40 am »
Is Johno the vaporizer builder and and Little John (LJ) the chemist, (and a member here),  the same person?








« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 01:15:09 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline BAHBEEs

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2020, 05:22:54 pm »
All the above post are interesting to me. It is amazing how oxalic and formic are tied together chemically by temperature change.  As ParksMtnApiary pointed out, OAV turns into formic at 375 f or 190.556C;  Is this true?
If so, let's keep in mind 230C is above the oxalic threshold by several degrees, at 190.556C no longer oxalic but now converted into formic, yet 230 C is the required temperature to be effective by use of a vaporizer via Oxalic against mites. , so, that means the once OAV is no longer OAV when it reaches the 190.556C mark, but converted into fromic gas. Wouldn't it be more accurate from that point to rename it Formic vapor instead of Oxalic vapor? Which brings up another question, maybe it's this controlled state of formic that is killing the mites after all? And an asset to we beekeepers and our bees, Or at least a big part of it? Perhaps too hot is not to hot at all, but just right. 
:happy:

https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-convert-oxalic-acid-to-formic-acid

To actually convert oxalic to formic requires heating to 90-110 after mixing with Glycol.  The glycol is a catalyst.

The chemistry goes like this

In the laboratory, formic acid can be obtained by heating oxalic acid in glycerol and extraction by steam distillation.[16] Glycerol acts as a catalyst, as the reaction proceeds through a glyceryl oxalate intermediate. If the reaction mixture is heated to higher temperatures, allyl alcohol results. The net reaction is thus:
C2O4H2 → CO2H2 + CO2

While Oxalic "can" decompose to formic it is by far not its preferential pathway based on the energy required for it to do so.  It is far more energetically easy to decompose to CO2, CO and H2O.  Also the Formic path is quite a bit slower as far as reaction times go, so as some small amount might try to form, the stuff is evaporating so fast at the temps we use that it has very little opportunity to form.

So long to short...while some small amount might form...it really is a negligible amount.

Barry

.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4236
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2020, 06:44:38 pm »
All the above post are interesting to me. It is amazing how oxalic and formic are tied together chemically by temperature change.  As ParksMtnApiary pointed out, OAV turns into formic at 375 f or 190.556C;  Is this true?
If so, let's keep in mind 230C is above the oxalic threshold by several degrees, at 190.556C no longer oxalic but now converted into formic, yet 230 C is the required temperature to be effective by use of a vaporizer via Oxalic against mites. , so, that means the once OAV is no longer OAV when it reaches the 190.556C mark, but converted into fromic gas. Wouldn't it be more accurate from that point to rename it Formic vapor instead of Oxalic vapor? Which brings up another question, maybe it's this controlled state of formic that is killing the mites after all? And an asset to we beekeepers and our bees, Or at least a big part of it? Perhaps too hot is not to hot at all, but just right. 
:happy:

https://www.quora.com/How-can-I-convert-oxalic-acid-to-formic-acid

To actually convert oxalic to formic requires heating to 90-110 after mixing with Glycol.  The glycol is a catalyst.

The chemistry goes like this

In the laboratory, formic acid can be obtained by heating oxalic acid in glycerol and extraction by steam distillation.[16] Glycerol acts as a catalyst, as the reaction proceeds through a glyceryl oxalate intermediate. If the reaction mixture is heated to higher temperatures, allyl alcohol results. The net reaction is thus:
C2O4H2 → CO2H2 + CO2

While Oxalic "can" decompose to formic it is by far not its preferential pathway based on the energy required for it to do so.  It is far more energetically easy to decompose to CO2, CO and H2O.  Also the Formic path is quite a bit slower as far as reaction times go, so as some small amount might try to form, the stuff is evaporating so fast at the temps we use that it has very little opportunity to form.

So long to short...while some small amount might form...it really is a negligible amount.

Barry

.

'While Oxalic "can" decompose to formic it is by far not its preferential pathway based on the energy required for it to do so.  It is far more energetically easy to decompose to CO2, CO and H2O.  Also the Formic path is quite a bit slower as far as reaction times go, so as some small amount might try to form, the stuff is evaporating so fast at the temps we use that it has very little opportunity to form.''

Yes, as ParksMtnApiary said, ''I?ve read after about 375 degrees OA turns into formic acid and carbon monoxide.''  I am sure he meant an everporting gas as you described above,the stuff is evaporating so fast? Of course if a liquid formic was desired, which in this case is not, then the heating in glycerol and extraction by steam distillation method that you just described would be the way to go and the formic would not be lost, as in our case to gas in the hive. Thanks for colorabiting his phrase. Even more clearer now.
Phillip
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline BAHBEEs

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2020, 10:50:49 am »
I don't know that I would call it corroborated...as my point was that you really are getting at most a tiny smidge of Formic from a "just heat it up" situation.  When you mix it with glycol, it actually catalyzes the reaction, and that produces Formic in "reasonable" amounts.   The lab method still has you continually adding more Oxalic about 4 times just to get the mixture up to 50% formic.  So even the laboratory method is not a "great" producer of Formic if you have to essentially refeed the reaction 4 times just to get to 50%.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4236
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2020, 12:04:39 pm »
I don't know that I would call it corroborated...as my point was that you really are getting at most a tiny smidge of Formic from a "just heat it up" situation.  When you mix it with glycol, it actually catalyzes the reaction, and that produces Formic in "reasonable" amounts.   The lab method still has you continually adding more Oxalic about 4 times just to get the mixture up to 50% formic.  So even the laboratory method is not a "great" producer of Formic if you have to essentially refeed the reaction 4 times just to get to 50%.

So yau are saying that Parks is incorrect, Oxalic does not turn into formic and carbon monoxide gas at 375  F as he described?  Intresting
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline BAHBEEs

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Gender: Male
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2020, 12:08:00 pm »
Pretty much yes.  While "some" is in fact formed, a) it is a very small amount to begin with and b) it is a slow reaction so your oxalic has evaporated so fast the much slower formic acid formation just cant get going before all the oxalic is gone.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4236
  • North Mississippi
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2020, 12:10:53 pm »
Pretty much yes.  While "some" is in fact formed, a) it is a very small amount to begin with and b) it is a slow reaction so your oxalic has evaporated so fast the much slower formic acid formation just cant get going before all the oxalic is gone.

Thank you for your research on this will you mind sharing it with us? Very interesting.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline van from Arkansas

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1567
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2020, 12:00:24 am »
All the above post are interesting to me. It is amazing how oxalic and formic are tied together chemically by temperature change.  As ParksMtnApiary pointed out, OAV turns into formic at 375 f or 190.556C;  Is this true?
If so, let's keep in mind 230C is above the oxalic threshold by several degrees, at 190.556C no longer oxalic but now converted into formic, yet 230 C is the required temperature to be effective by use of a vaporizer via Oxalic against mites. , so, that means the once OAV is no longer OAV when it reaches the 190.556C mark, but converted into fromic gas. Wouldn't it be more accurate from that point to rename it Formic vapor instead of Oxalic vapor? Which brings up another question, maybe it's this controlled state of formic that is killing the mites after all? And an asset to we beekeepers and our bees, Or at least a big part of it? Perhaps too hot is not to hot at all, but just right. 
:happy:



.


Phil, ya gotta add glycerol to the Oxalic acid to obtain Formic acid.  Oxalic acid sublimates at about 220C.  So just heating Oxalic acid yields Oxalic vapor unless one add glycerol.
Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.