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Author Topic: OAV too hot?  (Read 1661 times)

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2020, 07:29:38 pm »
Ben, question, is the following what Randy Oliver??

Let?s remember what Randy said  At 315?F (157.222 ?C) the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372?F (188.889 ?C)  ANY remaining OAV WILL decompose!


Is the above what Mr. Oliver said?  Thanks

Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2020, 07:34:51 pm »
Ben, question, is the following what Randy Oliver??

Let?s remember what Randy said  At 315?F (157.222 ?C) the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372?F (188.889 ?C)  ANY remaining OAV WILL decompose!


Is the above what Mr. Oliver said?  Thanks

Van
Basically yes except I added the 157C  and 188C to simplify
ScientificBeekeeping.com
Beekeeping Through the Eyes of a Biologist
Oxalic Acid: Heat Vaporization and Other Methods: Part 2 of 2 Parts
According to Randy Oliver in this article

"How does oxalic vaporization work? In the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics we find that upon heating oxalic acid, the water of hydration boils off first, then at 315?F'' (157.222 ?C) ''the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372?F'' (188.889 ?C) '' any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon dioxide. The hot vapor rises within the confines of the hive bodies, and recondenses into tiny crystals that coat everything inside the hive. One of the problems with some vaporizers is that they get too hot too quickly and decompose, rather than evaporate the acid.

"
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 10:44:13 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2020, 07:36:45 pm »
AS Forrest Gump said to the lady on the bench. " This ia all I have to say about that"  . lol
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2020, 07:57:45 pm »
Thank you, Phil.

Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2020, 08:01:47 pm »
Thank you, Phil.

Van

Your welcome Van
Phillip
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 10:47:31 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2020, 08:17:26 pm »
This does make make sense to me? which has not yet sublimed?. Not logical to say chemistry speaking.  Water boils at 212F at sea level.  There is no such thing as ?not yet? boiled if the water is 212F.  There is no liquid water at 213F and above unless there is pressure.  Not going into heat of fusion, beyond scope of Beekeeping.

With respect to Mr. Oliver?s biological knowledge, perhaps a typo, or simply stated to achieve a means.  I appreciate Mr. Oliver's work with the bees, another fella I look up to.
Bee meeting,,, Have to run,,

Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2020, 08:54:03 pm »
This does make make sense to me? which has not yet sublimed?. Not logical to say chemistry speaking.  Water boils at 212F at sea level.  There is no such thing as ?not yet? boiled if the water is 212F.  There is no liquid water at 213F and above unless there is pressure.  Not going into heat of fusion, beyond scope of Beekeeping.

With respect to Mr. Oliver?s biological knowledge, perhaps a typo, or simply stated to achieve a means.  I appreciate Mr. Oliver's work with the bees, another fella I look up to.
Bee meeting,,, Have to run,,

Van

I have confidence in Mr Oliver and his research. Maybe it has something to do with the chemical reaction when heated? Chemicals can do some strange things? I do think Randy is accurate because I read other headlines from other sources, claiming the almost word to word same thing.
Phillip

« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 10:44:05 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2020, 09:16:24 pm »
This does make make sense to me? which has not yet sublimed?. Not logical to say chemistry speaking.  Water boils at 212F at sea level.  There is no such thing as ?not yet? boiled if the water is 212F.  There is no liquid water at 213F and above unless there is pressure.  Not going into heat of fusion, beyond scope of Beekeeping.

With respect to Mr. Oliver?s biological knowledge, perhaps a typo, or simply stated to achieve a means.  I appreciate Mr. Oliver's work with the bees, another fella I look up to.
Bee meeting,,, Have to run,,

Van


Van, all I can tell you is what I fiind, since water boils at 212 ?Fahrenheit (100 ?Celsius) I really do not see a problem, but remember I am not as educated as you three chemist so I ask for grace due to my lack of chemistry education.  Let's look at it once more, I will not put it in Randys words but my on, simple layman terms.  I am simply attempting to see things through his eyes, and explain it my way hoping to help you better understand. We have established that water will boil off starting at 100 C or 212 f apparently this takes only seconds in some types of OAV vaporizers.  Especially when placed into an already high heat, Top sealed, cooking pot that is already 230 C or 446F JohnO said when this sudden introduction hits his cook pot the temperature plummets. Remember the PID is telling the electricity to go back to heating pronto, instantly the pot temperature begins to rise, on its way once again to reach 230 C of 446 f ,  if you will. While it is heating back up Oxalic is well in the effective range to sublime from 315 f (157.222 C)  to 372 f  (188.889 C);  the perfect temperature to sublime the now dry crystal or powder if you will, left in the cook pot because apparently the moisture instantaneously boiled off while cooling the cookpot to the right temperature  . (When you handle Oxalic do you notice it looks kind of like little damp snowflakes?) If the temperature were able to once again reach the 372 f mark or above, before simulation was complete, ANY remaining in the cook pot would be decomposed to formic and carbon dioxide. Mr Johno suggest this will not happen in time to decompose in his unit. Now these are not Mr Olivers or Mr JohnO words but my trying to help. I hope that helps.
 
Phillip



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« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 05:40:07 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2020, 10:53:03 pm »
The Oxalic acid I use is 99.6% pure,  not dehydrate.  Dehydrate Oxalic acid which is sold on Amazon is not the same as my pure Oxalic acid.  Pure Oxalic acid is similar to table salt, a little bit finer, solid white crystal, but the size of the crystals can be altered just as table salt and rock salt.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2020, 11:05:51 pm »
The Oxalic acid I use is 99.6% pure,  not dehydrate.  Dehydrate Oxalic acid which is sold on Amazon is not the same as my pure Oxalic acid.  Pure Oxalic acid is similar to table salt, a little bit finer, solid white crystal, but the size of the crystals can be altered just as table salt and rock salt.


Yes and good stuff, I buy mine form Florida Laboratories Inc. 5 lbs  99.6% purity. Most likely the same stuff.
Blessings,
Phillip



« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 05:41:44 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2020, 11:21:37 pm »
Mine says "Pure Oxalic Acid" - and I buy it from amazon.

When I OAV with the Provap - the mites die. ... so, it seems to work, regardless of temp studies ... if I could be doing something "better", I'd like to know about it.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Online Ben Framed

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2020, 11:32:53 pm »
Mine says "Pure Oxalic Acid" - and I buy it from amazon.

When I OAV with the Provap - the mites die. ... so, it seems to work, regardless of temp studies ... if I could be doing something "better", I'd like to know about it.

I know of nothing better either. Though I never meant to go to this length, I am glad I did. Answering parks legitimate question as he ask to the best of my ability, with the most accurate information that I could find. I hope it may help someone. 



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« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 10:56:35 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2020, 10:16:05 am »
Mine says "Pure Oxalic Acid" - and I buy it from amazon.

When I OAV with the Provap - the mites die. ... so, it seems to work, regardless of temp studies ... if I could be doing something "better", I'd like to know about it.

Agreed Cool, Kinda what Jim said  in post number #4.  The provap with oxalic acid works well, Univ of Florida confirmed this.....  about Oxalic acid, temp of 230.  I adore mine provap.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 10:29:32 am by van from Arkansas »
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2020, 11:14:37 am »
" I adore mine provap."

As you should.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2020, 02:03:29 pm »
Van hinted towards this but I will restate.

No liquid that is not pressurized can be hotter than its boiling temp.  Every erg of energy you pour into the system just causes faster release of energy via the evaporation.  Same is true for solids that sublime. 

Similarly to with water one would have to pretty much instantly get the material extremely hot (think WAYYYYY over the evap/sublime temp), to actually get the material in question to decompose before it sublimed.

To me the formic concerns are "much ado about nothing".

As long as you don't pressurize the system this is just not a problem. 

Online Ben Framed

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2020, 03:54:22 pm »
BAHBEEs
No argument from me. What I do know is the band heater type using high heat with a sealed top does build up a certain amount of pressure The 1/4 . inch tube allows this pressure to escape, just as a radiator with a hole in it may do when you see steam coming out.  One difference is an overheated car probably never reaches 230C?  I am no scientist or chemist, Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps you are not. I am stating what Randy Oliver, whom I have much confidence in, as do  many others throughout the world. Perhaps he is wrong? Perhaps I am wrong for trusting him? My finding of this and sharing this, stemmed from Parks original question and concerns. From Parks concerns I ask questions here and did some searching myself and found the following by Mr Oliver. If you read closely he is banking on the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics I have no more to add to this his finding that I have not already attempted to add in order to answer parks legitimate question. Perhaps if I were to search further I may be able to find more to help you and van? But it seems I am banging my head against a wall, if you will or beating a dead horse. lol .

"in the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics we find that upon heating oxalic acid, the water of hydration boils off first, then at 315?F" (157.222 ?C) "the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372?F" (188.889 ?C) " any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon dioxide. The hot vapor rises within the confines of the hive bodies, and recondenses into tiny crystals that coat everything inside the hive. One of the problems with some vaporizers is that they get too hot too quickly and decompose, rather than evaporate the acid.

"

Best Wishes,
Phillip



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« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 05:45:57 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2020, 04:10:09 pm »
Mr. Ben, Buddy, get ready for this Thursday.  Going to be in the teens, not to reach above freezing at N arkansas.  My brood?!??!?!?  Off subject, so I stop.

Van
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2020, 05:38:20 pm »
Mr. Ben, Buddy, get ready for this Thursday.  Going to be in the teens, not to reach above freezing at N arkansas.  My brood?!??!?!?  Off subject, so I stop.

Van

Thank you Van




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« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 11:56:59 am by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline ParksMtnApiary

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Re: OAV too hot?
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2020, 10:17:51 am »
Man, great discussion. I appreciate all the feedback. I have my easyvap on order. I do OA dribble, and MAQS and can?t wait to get my Johno easy vap. Thank you all