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Offline sawdstmakr

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Australian fires
« on: January 05, 2020, 11:14:02 pm »
Just saw a satellite photo of the massive fires all over the continent.
Un believable.
I really feel for you guys that live near where these fires are.
The Bugaboo Fire, one of the biggest fires ever in Florida came less than a mile from my farm. We could have lost everything.
This storm was so large that it created its own weather system that the firefighters were able to use it to control the fire.
I heard that millions of bees have been burned.
I hope none of our members have been affected.
Jim Altmiller

Offline max2

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2020, 11:38:45 pm »
Thanks for caring, Jim.

I spoke to a large ( for Australia) beekeeper yesterday and he tells me that a lot of hives have been lost in the Southern States and on Kangoroo Island . No details as yet.
There will be long term issues with about 5.2 million ha burned - a lot od this bush.
We are OK here ( Queensland) but it has been a very poor season due to the lack of rain.

I checked on some hives this morning and they are slow.
We had some very hot weather here and from what I see either the queen stopped laying for a while or the heat killed a bunch of eggs - there is a break in the brood pattern.

Bees are not the topic at this stage at Government level as lives and property has been lost but as time goes on issues like bees will also have to dealt with.

Offline max2

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2020, 12:32:38 am »
About bees and the fire:
Ligurian honey bees

The Ligurian bees on Kangaroo Island are believed to be the last remaining pure stock of this insect found anywhere in the world.

They have been thriving on the island for the past 135 years after the South Australian Government declared the island a bee sanctuary.

Kangaroo Island Ligurian Queen Bees owner Stephen Heatley lost 40 of his hives in the fires but "guessed" up to 500 hives could have succumbed to the flames.

"That part of the island that was burnt was the main drawcard for keepers to put their hives," he said.

He said the Ligurian honey bees were introduced from Italy and arrived in Australia via the United States in 1885, before making their way to Kangaroo Island.

"They've stayed here ever since," he said.

The production of Ligurian honey has boomed on the island and it is now used to make a range of products, including beauty products and skincare.
Kangaroo Island bushfires
Photo: Smoke clouds billow from above flames at Ravine, on Kangaroo Island, last Friday. (Supplied: CFS)

How will the Australian bush recover?

Bushfires have ravaged about 5.8 million hectares of bush, known for its unique flora and fauna, across Australia.

It is estimated that wildlife loss across Australia through this bushfire season will exceed 500 million.

Professor Woinarski said recovery could take decades.

"It may take many years for the resources that those plants and animals need after the fire to come back again ? so things like tree hollows, dense layers of vegetation and leaf litter," he said.

"They're not going to come back now for decades.

"Many Australians feel a natural affinity for the bush in which we live and these fires are now changing that tie with the land and the environment.

"I think increasingly, many people will see the forest, woodlands and nature as a menace to human life and that's going to have bad consequences.

"We need to appreciate the forests and woodlands in which we live and we can't treat it like the enemy."

Offline Milo

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2020, 04:58:42 am »
I am 115 miles from the nearest fire and visibility is down to around 550 yards with air quality listed as hazardous

Those poor souls directly in it are doing it tough.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2020, 08:58:12 am »
Makes you wonder...  With unprecedented fires, hurricanes, typhoons and polar ice caps melting there are still people believing things are normal.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2020, 10:33:52 am »
Ace,
If global warming is so bad, how many hurricanes hit the US this year?
Global warming was going to wipe out the polar bears. This year their numbers are higher than ever.
Jim Altmiller

Offline Milo

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2020, 03:52:36 pm »
Gentlemen please;

Where I grew up we had an issue of rising salinity over a widespread area (tens of miles square). we took action at the time improving farming infrastructure and planting tens of thousands of trees. We don?t have a salinity problem now in my area (fixed before rainfall patterns changed by the way) and have saved prime agricultural land.

When I grew up we had a problem with a hole in the ozone layer, scientists told us it was due to CFCs. We took action limiting their use. From all reports I have read the ozone layer is healing.

Where my children are growing up now I see and feel the effects of climate change (man made or otherwise - I don?t care for deniers of the fact, I live it and experience it. You can deny it?s man made but if you say to my face it?s not changing I may just get tetchy, well maybe slightly more than tetchy).

We have the opportunity to take action to see if we can make a change to the long term outlook on climate change. It will take investment but it needs a driver. In my simple view it often takes War or Taxation to drive innovation in the free market. To say what is occurring here now is war is a gross overstatement that would offend many, but it is a wake up call that should be heeded.

Our governments in Oz now have the opportunity to reset and invest. Our CSIRO is second to none and investment in research brings many dollar returns. The business opportunities are many and the free market will grow with support from our government.

As my dear old Dad has recently said to me; my time is done, yours is now please don?t mess it up for my grandchildren.

Online iddee

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2020, 04:32:07 pm »
""but if you say to my face it?s not changing I may just get tetchy,""

We each have our opinions, and my opinion agrees with yours on that statement. I would say anyone who says it isn't changing is playing with a deck of 51, or less.
On the other side of the coin, my opinion is, anyone claiming it is caused by man is also short a card or two. The climate has been changing for millions of years and will continue to change for millions more. The effect man has on the change will be minuscule to none.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline minz

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2020, 04:49:58 pm »
Its kind of on a ?thermal run away? now. That?s when a small change creates and event (like drought causing California to burn) then the smoke causes more to cause Australia to burn, which in turn causes XX to burn. 
Is it past the tipping point?
As for polar bear numbers increasing it may be since the hunting quotas are down. The lack of hunting ice for them is affecting their cub survival.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11656-climate-myths-polar-bear-numbers-are-increasing/
Milo makes a good point, proof that we can change things.
Poor decisions make the best stories.

Offline Milo

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2020, 04:56:31 pm »
However what we can do to learn to live with that change is great. Our (oz) governments have been in political atrophy over the issue and have done nothing to assist communities to live, learn or work with the change.

Whether it is investment in better Forrest management or Firefighting or Farming or community resilience or ?action? or research, our government has been blinkered on simply spending less to achieve a budget surplus that is on thin paper.

The refusal of our government to fund the necessary aerial firefighting units requested by the firefighting agencies two years ago was either denial purely because the document mentioned the dirty words of climate change or it was a significant risk taken to try limit expenditure to achieve the balanced budget. Either way it was denial that there was a genuine need and instead of a hundred million dollars it has and will cost us billions.

We certainly agree on the change occurring, I believe my government could and should have done more to prevent or limit the extent of this current event.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2020, 06:06:16 pm »
Either way it was denial that there was a genuine need and instead of a hundred million dollars it has and will cost us billions.
Milo, you are not alone.  We use the same logic in this country.
Man o man I never heard of equating climate change to polar bear population.  That is a new one for me.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2020, 06:12:18 pm »
We have issues with fires here and the states that get hit the hardest are the ones that won't manage the forest.  Mine is one of those states.  We have been fortunate not to have the entire country go up in flames but that might have as much to do with varied geography as anything else.

Regardless of how or why the weather changes, the fact remains that fire has been natures way of clearing land since the beginning of time.  We can either manage things or nature will manage it for us.  We have some control when we do it, but none when nature does it. 

I wish you all well, and I know we have folks and equipment going over to help out.  Prayers for the safety of all involved. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Online iddee

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2020, 08:25:18 pm »
Milo, if you really want to worry about something we could do something about, think about oil. We are taking 561,000,000 cubic feet of oil out of the earth DAILY. Mother nature does not like vacuum. She will fill those spaces. How many earthquakes are we going to have because of the open spaces we are creating in the earth?

To put that into perspective, that is equivalent to 4,207,500,000 US gallons of water, per day. If the space is filled up with the ocean waters, just how much shoreline rise do you think we will have, or will the oceans actually recede?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 08:38:29 pm by iddee »
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline kathyp

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2020, 08:52:27 pm »
Quote
or will the oceans actually recede?

Might be a solution to rising seas.   :cheesy:




They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Milo

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2020, 04:32:37 am »
... think about oil. We are taking 561,000,000 cubic feet of oil out of the earth DAILY. Mother nature does not like vacuum. She will fill those spaces. How many earthquakes are we going to have... If the space is filled up with the ocean waters, just how much shoreline rise do you think we will have, or will the oceans actually recede?

Um okay, interesting concept but not a scenario (shoreline expansion) I am concerned about. but I think an interesting idea - that being you remove the high pressure oil from the porous rock creating a low pressure zone and then the water in the ocean above it wants to equalise the pressure in the rock by filling it, therefore lowering the ocean heights.

The question being will the melting ice from the increasing world temperatures (change - not necessarily from the burning of the oil) balance the water loss?

What I think though if you are concerned with the earthquake risk produced is that we take the concept that the extraction of the oil is the problem (not the burning of said oil) and seek an alternative fuel, Hydrogen perhaps?

We remove the risks of ocean drop, ocean pollution and reduce emissions (reducing air pollution if not reducing or reversing climate change).

So I take it you don?t like the extraction of oil and/or fracking?


Online iddee

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2020, 04:53:17 am »
I'm thinking if you remove 15 billion cubic feet of mass from the inner earth each month, what is going to replace it. I don't have the answer, but I think its something that needs answering. Natural gas may compress and cause pressure, but crude oil is liquid and liquids don't compress. Only holes left when it is removed, not expansive at a lower pressure.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2020, 09:38:47 am »
How many earthquakes are we going to have because of the open spaces we are creating in the earth?
Probably not many because they fill the voids with toxic chemicals.  The only side effect is poisoning ground water.  Liberals are not as worried about this because the major effect is in the center of the country where it has heavy concentrations of republicans. LOL
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Online iddee

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2020, 10:13:14 am »
Everybody likes a little ***. Nobody likes a smart***.   :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline jimineycricket

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2020, 10:34:07 am »
Actually, I do appreciate a little satire once in a while, but how does this conversation pertain to bee keeping??  Perhaps this should move to the coffee house.  BTW I like caramel lattes.
jimmy

Offline Bob Wilson

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Re: Australian fires
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2020, 03:52:27 pm »
Although this is not meant to belittle the present difficulties being endured, I think the honeybee will adapt in Autralia, just as the prarie dog and the coyote do in the States. The pendulum in every aspect of life tends to swing back and forth, whether a short cycle like the prarie dog (prey) VS the coyote (predator) relationship, or a millenial cycle like the complex rhythm of our planet. Considering the truly massive amounts of solar energy absorbed by our planet every day, I don't believe man is the cause of the climate change which is occuring. I think it is part of the rhythm of our planet. Now, it is true we often do an extremely shoddy job of stewardship, and although nature is very quick to erase over man's existence when it is gone, we still need to enact better control of our resources. I was taught to take care of my toys.
Concerning the bees, whether on a small scale such as a neighbor's use of Sevin dust, or a large scale such as wildfire deforestation, I believe the little warrior, the honey bee, will return faster than we think. I am amazed by her resiliancy. As sure as the sun is shining over the clouds of smoke. As sure as the flower buds will poke up from the cold ashes, the bee will prevail.