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Author Topic: Becoming Treatment Free  (Read 1840 times)

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2020, 10:35:08 am »
Note I said I have never done am emergency OAV treatment...thus no I have never removed honey of a treatment.  I only do it two times.  Dead of winter when broodless, or 3 days after package installation. (again still no capped brood).  so by that standard, my honey is unaffected.

Are the bees affected? Sure!!

Try this,
I started spring of 18 with one hive, split it, both made winter while many around me died.  One swarmed in spring but I caught it, and also bought a new package.  I then adopted 3 hives from an old guy, and finally split a hive.  All but one are still chugging along (one of the adopted hives ended up with a bad hive beetle problem and vacated).  I have 4 on order for spring and have a number of spare hives ready anticipating swarm season.

What do I think makes the difference between my hives and those around me?  I feed them till they will not take more in late fall, and I OVA them in winter.  That is all. One assures they are well nourished.  the other that they are not dealing with viruses, by nailing the Varroa.

I would agree that it is likely that they would not last in the wild without us.  They are after all not native to this place.  It could be easily argued that they do harm by pushing out the native species...except we  are killing those off at a ferocious rate.

If someone isolates magic bees one day I will be 1st in line.  Till then.  I have healthy bees.  End of Story for me.

Barry

Offline gww

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2020, 11:29:02 am »
jav.........
Quote
I'd like to see something more than anecdotal about feral/wild bees.  I doubt bees in the US can live without human intervention.  If there is some research out there I'd love to see it.
All I know is that I am in my fourth winter and I have only had one hive die over winter.  I have had two hives die over this time (one because I messed up some how when taking a bunch of bees from it in july to give somebody with a queen).   I do not give brood breaks or destroy drone brood or do anything else as a mite control.  I have given syrup in fall in all years but this one.  We will see come spring but so far so good.  I do not discount others experiences when they say they can not do this but still find it hard to believe it is impossible when comparing to my experience because it has been possible for me for the last four years with bees.

I figure it is just as anecdotal when some body tells me that their bees will not live with out treatments as it is when I say that mine are living with out treatment.  I know what I know so far.
Cheers
gww

Offline yes2matt

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2020, 11:37:53 am »
Barry,

Within the  treatment free, chemical free beekeeping  community, there is some disagreement about what constitutes "treatment " .. a point of contention is whether feeding sugar syrup is a treatment,  another disagreement is whether making splits outside of swarm season is an artificial brood break and should be considered a treatment. Some people think that mechanical aids like beetle traps are not a treatment,  but most people agree that it is.

However, there is almost no disagreement that OAV, since it is an icaricide artificially introduced into the hive to kill mites, is a treatment.

And since OP asked about "becoming treatment free," that's why the answers have tended in that direction.

There are no "magic" bees but there are good bees and good methods. And some folks with a lot more years than me keeping without chemical interventions.

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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2020, 11:38:35 am »
Barry,  beside ridding of mites, in what way are your bees affected?
Quoting
Note I said I have never done am emergency OAV treatment...thus no I have never removed honey of a treatment.  I only do it two times.  Dead of winter when broodless, or 3 days after package installation. (again still no capped brood).  so by that standard, my honey is unaffected.

Are the bees affected? Sure!!
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline jvalentour

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2020, 11:48:13 am »
gww,
I was implying of a feral/wild survey over a large area of space.
I read about one several years ago but the author dropped off the map.
He counted feral hives in a specific geographical over several years.  The area was remote.
I'd be interested in something university sponsored over many years.

I am glad for your success.  I don't doubt your word.

Offline cao

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2020, 11:52:57 am »
I figure it is just as anecdotal when some body tells me that their bees will not live with out treatments as it is when I say that mine are living with out treatment.  I know what I know so far.
Cheers
gww

gww, I am right there with you.  I have a few more years than you, a few more hives than you and a few more losses than you but have not treated yet.

        7+ years, close to 80 hives, my losses tend to be around 10-20%



Offline paus

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2020, 11:57:07 am »
Treatment free, I thought I was TF until the preceding post.  Then I thought a hive tool applied to a SHB is a treatment.  So maybe we should say no chemicals that are not found naturally.  Oxalic Acid is very common in nature, many plants have enough OA to poison sheep and cattle.  This can go on and on and on.  Ain't it fun?

Offline yes2matt

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2020, 11:57:48 am »
gww,
I was implying of a feral/wild survey over a large area of space.
I read about one several years ago but the author dropped off the map.
He counted feral hives in a specific geographical over several years.  The area was remote.
I'd be interested in something university sponsored over many years.

I am glad for your success.  I don't doubt your word.
That's that book I linked to: Tom Seeley's study of feral colonies in the Arnot Forest

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Offline gww

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2020, 12:06:40 pm »
cao
I am at nine hives down from ten due to a fall beekeeper error loss this fall.  My losses (knock on wood) are a bit lower then yours and we are not to april yet and so that might change.  I have not worked on increasing hive numbers but have sold a couple of splits from the hives.  I have worked on trying to keep swarming down due to getting to ten hives from three due to a very swarmy first year.

jv
I did see a couple of those older studies.  This is just my belief and not from a study but here goes.  I believe that there is probably a decent feral population in most places that have home spots for bees to take up.  I base this belief on the ideal that nature mostly over breeds and keeps such areas full even with high death rate.  So if a place like the arnet forest that only has so many nest sites for bees and most of those being full and then the bees swarming often, it creates a 75 percent loss of the swarms issued but yet the population seems to stay stable.  So it is not that bees do not die but more that bees reproduce very well.
Not saying I know anything just my guess from reading alot.
Cheers
gww

ps Paus-  If you are a beekeeper, you manage hives.  Mites are new.  You can manage hives and did before mites.  If you are managing mites instead of managing bees, you are probably not treatment free.  Just because you manage bees like has always been done, it would make you a beekeeper and not a mite treater.  Common sense dictates that you manage hives to get something for yourself and not for the bees.  Common sense says you would feed your bees in extra ordinary situations or if a drought hit after you took their honey.  This has nothing to really do with mites and is the difference of having bees in a tree in the back yard compared to having bees in something that allows you to get something from them over and over.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 12:17:24 pm by gww »

Offline paus

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2020, 04:12:31 pm »
Well said GWW  I got my first bees about 70 years ago.  I was a "Bee Haver" I lost all my hives when I went to service. Knowing what I know now I probably would have lost them any way.  I use DSBB with an oil pan and screened top board with a cloth and sawdust or shavings, about 1 1/2 inches deep same as a quilt.  Thanks to Jim I left the shavings in last summer good Idea.  I did not see bees bearding even on the hottest days.  I have been through several hives last week and never saw any SHB or mold.  There is an advantage to having less than 20/20 vision. I never see mites, hopefully they fell into the oil pan. A hive tool applied to a SHB is treatment as well as the oil pan ,  SOOOO I am not treatment free.  There is no line for treatment and treatment free, it is the degree of treatment we deem best for our situation.  There I go getting philosophical.  I heard that some men were philosophers and others married sweet wives.  I also that philosophers were stupid, witness the last statement.     Thanks to Jim I left the shavings in all summer and I never saw any bearding, or any mildew in hives in the last two winters.  Thanks for this info.                         
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 07:01:12 pm by paus »

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2020, 04:18:16 pm »
Folks, you need to step back a moment.  You guys are feeling altogether too good about yourselves and the impact of beekeeping.

There are no Honey Bees native to NA.  Europeans brought them here.

They are all invasive, so this nonsense about keeping bees to help nature and all that is horse hockey.  We keep bees to have honey.  If you want to help the environment leave honey bees alone and build native bee habitats.  Any Feral Honeybee hive is in direct competition with the native bees in the area, and thus the exact opposite of helpful.

Beekeeping is farming...well closer to ranching...with a species not meant to live here. 

If you want to fool yourself that you are a saint helping out the environment (and BTW that is the field I actually work in), well you are indeed fooling yourself.  If anything the practice of keeping bees harms the native bees. 

Sorry, but these are just facts.  I keep bees in spite of these facts because I deeply value honey.  The bees are simply a means to an end.  And thus I give them any reasonable and natural advantage...as Oxalic acid is quite common in nature and is naturally found in a beehive anyway...judge and farm as you will, but do it with clear vision of what we are doing.  I suppose more importantly understand what we are not doing...wearing some white hat come to rescue nature.

Barry

Offline gww

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2020, 05:34:21 pm »
BAHBEES
By your reasoning, even man is not native cause this is not where the species originated.  I keep hearing something about the bering strait.  I didn't see anyone getting on their high horse or saying they were saving the world in this thread and so missed the need of the point you are making.  I do agree that most keep bees for what bees give them rather then just set up habitat like you would with a blue bird nest.  I thought most of this thread was based on how to raise bees with out resorting to having to do something about mites and also if that was possible.
Cheers
gww

Ps Paus-  I can not see eggs either and can only see small larva if I find big and work backwards.  I can relate.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2020, 12:18:57 am »
Folks, you need to step back a moment.  You guys are feeling altogether too good about yourselves and the impact of beekeeping.

There are no Honey Bees native to NA.  Europeans brought them here.

They are all invasive, so this nonsense about keeping bees to help nature and all that is horse hockey.  We keep bees to have honey.  If you want to help the environment leave honey bees alone and build native bee habitats.  Any Feral Honeybee hive is in direct competition with the native bees in the area, and thus the exact opposite of helpful.

Beekeeping is farming...well closer to ranching...with a species not meant to live here. 

If you want to fool yourself that you are a saint helping out the environment (and BTW that is the field I actually work in), well you are indeed fooling yourself.  If anything the practice of keeping bees harms the native bees. 

Sorry, but these are just facts.  I keep bees in spite of these facts because I deeply value honey.  The bees are simply a means to an end.  And thus I give them any reasonable and natural advantage...as Oxalic acid is quite common in nature and is naturally found in a beehive anyway...judge and farm as you will, but do it with clear vision of what we are doing.  I suppose more importantly understand what we are not doing...wearing some white hat come to rescue nature.

Barry

BAHBEES
By your reasoning, even man is not native cause this is not where the species originated.  I keep hearing something about the bering strait.  I didn't see anyone getting on their high horse or saying they were saving the world in this thread and so missed the need of the point you are making.  I do agree that most keep bees for what bees give them rather then just set up habitat like you would with a blue bird nest.  I thought most of this thread was based on how to raise bees with out resorting to having to do something about mites and also if that was possible.
Cheers
gww

Ps Paus-  I can not see eggs either and can only see small larva if I find big and work backwards.  I can relate.

I agree gww. I did not see any sign of anyone here that seemed to feel to good about themselves, trying to get on a high horse, or wear a white hat, try to save the world, show signs arrogance, or an indication of a high opinion of oneself up until a certain post. Up until then I read good solid discussion and reasoning from each poster.  I think I understand what you tretment free folks are talking about, as Paus said and I agree. Treatment means some type of chemistarty compound added to the hive, either inorganic or organic for that matter. Is this correct non treaters?

One of our posters said, "Beekeeping is farming...well closer to ranching...with a species not meant to live here."
OK let's look at the farming and ranching here in North America. What is native to this continent which is essential to the farm industry?
Let's look at cotton. Originally from India, (Soybeans - China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Russia), (Almonds- Western Asia gets the credit.), (Watermelon- West Africa), (Buckwheat- Asia.), On and on we could go at the plants and such which  All are important to our farm industry. Money for a strong economy. Food to feed hungry people as well as livestock.  Should the Honey Bee not earn the same respect?

Let's look at livestock starting with ranching here in America; Beef and Dairy Cattle- (Asia and Europe), Sheep-(Asia) I do not know much about goats, tame rabbits, chickens.  Let's share and learn together in our beekeeping section having fun doing so. 
Blessings



.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline jvalentour

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2020, 12:23:04 am »
Bahbee, be a good chap and fetch the horse.  And be quick about it man.

Offline jvalentour

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2020, 12:28:48 am »
paus:
Treatment free, I thought I was TF until the preceding post.  Then I thought a hive tool applied to a SHB is a treatment.


THAT was funny.  Thanks paus.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2020, 12:35:50 am »
paus:
Treatment free, I thought I was TF until the preceding post.  Then I thought a hive tool applied to a SHB is a treatment.


THAT was funny.  Thanks paus.

X-2 . lol .  :grin:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2020, 10:39:59 am »
Bahbee, be a good chap and fetch the horse.  And be quick about it man.

How bout that.

I got something you can fetch, but moderators wouldn't appreciate. 
 

One added to the no need to communicate with list.

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2020, 10:46:53 am »
The point simply was that little to nothing we do in beekeeping is "natural" so there seems to be a ....  logical limit to how far to take this all natural argument. 

Heck there is very little natural about how we put them in variable sized houses and constantly change the size to "manage" them.  If one was going to play the all natural game it could be taken to some quite silly extents.

And while many have not waxed happy about how green they thought they where being, I have seen that feeling aired on the website so, it is what it is, but folks do need to understand exactly what honey bees are and are not.

Excuse the prior attempts at light hearted humor.  It seems senses of humor are rarer every day.

Barry

Folks, you need to step back a moment.  You guys are feeling altogether too good about yourselves and the impact of beekeeping.

There are no Honey Bees native to NA.  Europeans brought them here.

They are all invasive, so this nonsense about keeping bees to help nature and all that is horse hockey.  We keep bees to have honey.  If you want to help the environment leave honey bees alone and build native bee habitats.  Any Feral Honeybee hive is in direct competition with the native bees in the area, and thus the exact opposite of helpful.

Beekeeping is farming...well closer to ranching...with a species not meant to live here. 

If you want to fool yourself that you are a saint helping out the environment (and BTW that is the field I actually work in), well you are indeed fooling yourself.  If anything the practice of keeping bees harms the native bees. 

Sorry, but these are just facts.  I keep bees in spite of these facts because I deeply value honey.  The bees are simply a means to an end.  And thus I give them any reasonable and natural advantage...as Oxalic acid is quite common in nature and is naturally found in a beehive anyway...judge and farm as you will, but do it with clear vision of what we are doing.  I suppose more importantly understand what we are not doing...wearing some white hat come to rescue nature.

Barry

BAHBEES
By your reasoning, even man is not native cause this is not where the species originated.  I keep hearing something about the bering strait.  I didn't see anyone getting on their high horse or saying they were saving the world in this thread and so missed the need of the point you are making.  I do agree that most keep bees for what bees give them rather then just set up habitat like you would with a blue bird nest.  I thought most of this thread was based on how to raise bees with out resorting to having to do something about mites and also if that was possible.
Cheers
gww

Ps Paus-  I can not see eggs either and can only see small larva if I find big and work backwards.  I can relate.

I agree gww. I did not see any sign of anyone here that seemed to feel to good about themselves, trying to get on a high horse, or wear a white hat, try to save the world, show signs arrogance, or an indication of a high opinion of oneself up until a certain post. Up until then I read good solid discussion and reasoning from each poster.  I think I understand what you tretment free folks are talking about, as Paus said and I agree. Treatment means some type of chemistarty compound added to the hive, either inorganic or organic for that matter. Is this correct non treaters?

One of our posters said, "Beekeeping is farming...well closer to ranching...with a species not meant to live here."
OK let's look at the farming and ranching here in North America. What is native to this continent which is essential to the farm industry?
Let's look at cotton. Originally from India, (Soybeans - China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Russia), (Almonds- Western Asia gets the credit.), (Watermelon- West Africa), (Buckwheat- Asia.), On and on we could go at the plants and such which  All are important to our farm industry. Money for a strong economy. Food to feed hungry people as well as livestock.  Should the Honey Bee not earn the same respect?

Let's look at livestock starting with ranching here in America; Beef and Dairy Cattle- (Asia and Europe), Sheep-(Asia) I do not know much about goats, tame rabbits, chickens.  Let's share and learn together in our beekeeping section having fun doing so. 
Blessings



.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2020, 11:13:41 am »
Excuse the prior attempts at light hearted humor.  It seems senses of humor are rarer every day.

Barry


Yes Berry It certainly does. J has a good one. I think J was only kidding with you in a light hearted way. My advice is don't take him wrong, Use your sense of humor.


Bahbee, be a good chap and fetch the horse.  And be quick about it man.

How bout that.

I got something you can fetch, but moderators wouldn't appreciate. 
 

One added to the no need to communicate with list.



.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 01:43:13 pm by Ben Framed »
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Offline gww

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Re: Becoming Treatment Free
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2020, 11:48:13 am »
BAHBEE
Quote
Excuse the prior attempts at light hearted humor.  It seems senses of humor are rarer every day.

Barry
Written language has the ability to lose intent based on the reader.  A smiley has a way of clarifying intent very well.  :grin:
I am treatment free for me and not for the bees or nature.  It is just easier.
Cheers
gww