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Author Topic: Commercial re-queening question  (Read 349 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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Commercial re-queening question
« on: December 04, 2019, 08:54:51 pm »
What is the average length of time commercial beekeepers keep queens before requeening? I'm sure this varies from operation to operation. Mr HP, Mr Bush, Iddee, or anyone else, how long before you requeen?  Do you have a schedule that you go by? Just curious, I was reading from another post, (My BeeKeeping plan for 2020) and the life and age of  ''particular queens'' was being discussed.
Thanks,
Phillip

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2019, 09:07:40 pm »
Phil, I can tell you, the big guns, Colby, Latshaw that collect $600 per queen, minimum purchase is four, I.e, $2400.  They restock the guys that raise queens capable of suppling 1,000 queens in a single shipment.  We are talking the breeders that supply about 70-80% percent of the genetics in the USA.  Well, I know one breeder very well and the fella  restocks every year with new queens.  Amazing capacity of 1K queens in a single shipment.
Blessings
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2019, 09:17:03 pm »
Phil, I can tell you, the big guns, Colby, Latshaw that collect $600 per queen, minimum purchase is four, I.e, $2400.  They restock the guys that raise queens capable of suppling 1,000 queens in a single shipment.  We are talking the breeders that supply about 70-80% percent of the genetics in the USA.  Well, I know one breeder very well and the fella  restocks every year with new queens.  Amazing capacity of 1K queens in a single shipment.
Blessings

Thanks Mr Van, just another reason that we are blessed to have you here. A head full of knowledge. Your are breeding some top notch queens yourself and being modest about it. You are generous and kind enough to share with you friends,  just for the love of bees and people. I would love to add you genetics to my apiary! I do not know any other scientist who is so generous. The only reason that I have not already ask you for your genetics is because I do not think it is fair for you to simply give them. With all your research, expertise, AI equipment , etc you deserve to be paid. That's my opinion. :grin:
Phillip

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2019, 09:22:38 pm »
Phil, off subject: but I made a promise: never to work for money after I retired.  If I accept $1, then I have broken a promise also I am no longer a hobbyist.
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2019, 09:29:54 pm »
Phil, off subject: but I made a promise: never to work for money after I retired.  If I accept $1, then I have broken a promise also I am no longer a hobbyist.

That I can understand. Hopefully, when the time is right coming spring, I will be making a trip to Arkansas!!! With your permission and your convenience of course.
Phillip

Online iddee

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2019, 09:39:10 pm »
Van, that is where you and I disagree.When I lived in Illinois, I would stay out on the roads and highways all night when they were impassable, carrying food and drinks to strandees and bringing many of them back into town. I never quoted a price for doing so. Not even reimbursement for the drinks and food, nor fuel. I did accept donations. Whatever they felt like giving and/or could afford. I always managed to cover my cost and pocket a few dollars. I never considered it charging for my work, and I don't think they did either If someone wants to slip you 20, 50, or even more, for your queens or expertise, I do not consider that working for money. That is nothing more than a thank you note.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2019, 09:46:13 pm »
Van, that is where you and I disagree.When I lived in Illinois, I would stay out on the roads and highways all night when they were impassable, carrying food and drinks to strandees and bringing many of them back into town. I never quoted a price for doing so. Not even reimbursement for the drinks and food, nor fuel. I did accept donations. Whatever they felt like giving and/or could afford. I always managed to cover my cost and pocket a few dollars. I never considered it charging for my work, and I don't think they did either If someone wants to slip you 20, 50, or even more, for your queens or expertise, I do not consider that working for money. That is nothing more than a thank you note.

Well said iddee, I have a friend who is well off and retired. He is really good at buying and selling cars. He buys only the better cars for the money, no clunkers, for the best prices and resells. He does not keep any profit for himself. He gives to his church and charities. Mr Van, you could always put it back in the bees or some other good cause?  Just food for thought thanks to iddees input.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 09:56:29 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2019, 09:58:07 pm »
Van, that is where you and I disagree.When I lived in Illinois, I would stay out on the roads and highways all night when they were impassable, carrying food and drinks to strandees and bringing many of them back into town. I never quoted a price for doing so. Not even reimbursement for the drinks and food, nor fuel. I did accept donations. Whatever they felt like giving and/or could afford. I always managed to cover my cost and pocket a few dollars. I never considered it charging for my work, and I don't think they did either If someone wants to slip you 20, 50, or even more, for your queens or expertise, I do not consider that working for money. That is nothing more than a thank you note.

Well said iddee, I have a friend who is well off and retired. He is really good at buying and selling cars. He buys only the better cars for the money, no clunkers, for the best prices and resells. He does not keep any profit for himself. He gives to his church and charities. Mr Van, you could always put it back in the bees or some other good cause?  Just food for thought thanks to iddees input.

Either way, I would love to have The VT Breed of bees in my gene pool! :grin: :grin:

Online CoolBees

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2019, 02:08:44 pm »
I read [somewhere recently] that many [some] commercial operations re-queen twice a year - to get maximum production at key points in the season. ... i.e. once in Jan during buildup for California's pollination, and again in June, after the queens have been exposed to all the chemicals of Big Ag, to get ready for the main flow in other areas (eastern seaboard).

I've no way to know the truth of this - but it makes perfect sense to me (if money/maximum output is the main goal).
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2019, 02:57:40 pm »
Van, that is where you and I disagree.When I lived in Illinois, I would stay out on the roads and highways all night when they were impassable, carrying food and drinks to strandees and bringing many of them back into town. I never quoted a price for doing so. Not even reimbursement for the drinks and food, nor fuel. I did accept donations. Whatever they felt like giving and/or could afford. I always managed to cover my cost and pocket a few dollars. I never considered it charging for my work, and I don't think they did either If someone wants to slip you 20, 50, or even more, for your queens or expertise, I do not consider that working for money. That is nothing more than a thank you note.

ID, you explained just one of many reasons why I look up to you.
Blessings
Van
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2019, 03:06:53 pm »
I read [somewhere recently] that many [some] commercial operations re-queen twice a year - to get maximum production at key points in the season. ... i.e. once in Jan during buildup for California's pollination, and again in June, after the queens have been exposed to all the chemicals of Big Ag, to get ready for the main flow in other areas (eastern seaboard).

I've no way to know the truth of this - but it makes perfect sense to me (if money/maximum output is the main goal).

Cool, your state is the backbone of $ for the entire USA, almond pollination.  I believe what you read; the big outfits do things different from us little beeks.

To me, I have found a 12 month old queen to be most productive and will swarm if your not watching close.  However, I have also seen some one moth old queens that were impressive layers.  I?m still learning, I can make a beautiful hive out of either, 1 month or 1 year old queen.
Blessings
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2019, 04:25:51 pm »
We requeen on a needs basis, if there are faults, poor brood, poor honey collectors or bad temperament then they are requeened with mated queens.
We have requeened with cells sometimes but I have doubts about drone quality at some of our sites.
How much do you pay for a queen? In Oz it is about A$30 for less than 50, while cells are A$5.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2019, 11:09:23 pm »
We requeen on a needs basis, if there are faults, poor brood, poor honey collectors or bad temperament then they are requeened with mated queens.
We have requeened with cells sometimes but I have doubts about drone quality at some of our sites.
How much do you pay for a queen? In Oz it is about A$30 for less than 50, while cells are A$5.

I paid $37.50 for the last ones that I bought in September. I think that they can be had from $25 up depending on who the supplier is.

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2019, 08:45:43 am »
By routine requeening we passively select for bees who can't sense a failing queen and replace her.  So not only do I think it's a waste of money and time, I think it is a really bad idea.  Now if a colony is not thriving and not replacing their queen, I will requeen them.  But I would much rather that they would sense she is failing and replace her.  In nature this is strongly selected for because if they don't they are out of the gene pool.  Any selection that we avoid letting it happen is being passively selected against.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2019, 06:02:19 pm »
Requeening for temperament is active selection, I wish the bees would realise they are cranky and supersede.


Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2019, 01:06:15 am »
By routine requeening we passively select for bees who can't sense a failing queen and replace her.  So not only do I think it's a waste of money and time, I think it is a really bad idea.  Now if a colony is not thriving and not replacing their queen, I will requeen them.  But I would much rather that they would sense she is failing and replace her.  In nature this is strongly selected for because if they don't they are out of the gene pool.  Any selection that we avoid letting it happen is being passively selected against.

Mr Bush you have more knowledge in your little finger than I am likely to have for the rest of my life, even if I study night and day. For this reason and others, I have great respect for you, as I have stated before you are a legend in my way of thinking, sort of like EF Hutton, when you talk I listen. 
 :grin:

I am looking at your point about nature and the gene pool. A few years back, as I understand it folks were seeking feral hives specifically for traits that the ferals had acquired after years living in the wild and on their own without the interference mankind. For one example wild bees were known to have the natural cell size of small cell as mankind had placed oversized foundation through the years to strive for a bigger bee.

I also noticed Oldbeavo made excellent points as why to requeen, as opposed to letting the bees do it themselves naturally (so to speak). I am thinking that Oldbeavo is a commercial keeper. Gentleness as he stated is a great point and quality for someone who spends so much time handling their bees.
Other points for breeding for a kind of bee may be great reproduction qualities, less tendency to swarm qualities, mite fighting abilities, disease fighting ability etc. Most of these traits should be found in natural requeening situations as you describe, except I question if natural selection passes on less tendency to swarm?  These are all great reasons in themselves to Breed for specific Traits. After all, even brother Adam was seeking and breeding for a better bee in his time as I understand it. I think diversity is good.

I encourage you to press on desiring for the most natural. It is good and comforting to know that your type bee is here living and thriving well. I am grateful to you and your many years of experimenting and piling up the information from the years of hard knocks, as well as sharing that same information. I believe the natural bee will always be desired from breeders from time to time to revamp the qualities that I mentioned, to strengthen their gene pool.

I also equally want to encourage folks like Mr Van who are researching and striving to press on in seeking the desired traits that they seek in the (perfect bee), (the ultimate bee), such as I mentioned before, gentleness, reproduction qualities, less tendency to swarm qualities, mite fighting abilities, disease fighting ability etc.  Therefore I do not think it is a waste of money and time to seek a better bee by breeders, such as Mr Van. Just as many Canadians breed a bee suited for their environment and needs. Now let me say, I have limited time in beekeeping and my foot will probably be my dinner tonight for saying as much as I have said, and maybe crow pie for desert.  :grin:

I feel pretty comfortable in saying that there are many ways to raise bees and different ways and reasons to replace queens commercially. I salute each of you. And thank each of you for responding to this topic. Van, iddee, coolbees, Oldbeavo, Michael Bush. You have each placed some good insight and considerations which are appreciated.
Phillip   
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 01:24:48 am by Ben Framed »

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2019, 08:35:43 am »
I always requeen if I have a good reason.  Like a failing queen or a hot hive.  I'm just saying routine requeening just because the queen is old is passively selecting against the ability to sense a failing queen.  If they are not sensing the failing queen, I would not wait around for them.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2019, 08:53:11 am »
Good reasoning, thank you Mr Bush.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2019, 10:20:52 am »
M. Bush:  In nature this is strongly selected for because if they don't they are out of the gene pool.  Any selection that we avoid letting it happen is being passively selected against.

Good morning Mr. Bush, I wish to address the above statement which is in error.  Unfortunately the Drones survive from a weak failing hive and continue to pass on undesirable traits.  They are not out of the gene pool as stated, would be nice if they were but the drones as you know are readily accepted with the majority of hives.
Blessings
Van

« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 10:30:55 am by van from Arkansas »
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Commercial re-queening question
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2019, 10:36:50 am »
Obviously they may have already passed on their genes before the colony dies, but that particular colony will no longer contribute.  All their drones will be dead within six weeks at the most.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin