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Author Topic: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?  (Read 502 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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This is the first depth of detail that I have seen on this? Is Anyone here familiar with this method of mite treatment?
Phillip


https://glorybee.com/blog/oxalic-shop-towel-mite-treatment-method/

Offline bgillham

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2019, 11:32:14 pm »
I?ve used them this season. I have checked half my hives(about 15) for mites and I have found 1 mite so far.


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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2019, 11:45:08 pm »
The following is a direct quote from ScientificBeekeeping.com  and the article is titled 
''A Test of Late-Summer Varroa Treatments''

Let me cover the results of the late and informal testing of the oxalic strips and essential oil pads first:
Oxalic/glycerin Strips
Although we ran no controls for this small informal test (and could thus not calculate efficacy), our results (Table 2) reflected the results of Maggi, who recorded efficacies of over 90% after 6 weeks of treatment. The strips are relatively simple to make and install (Fig. 12). However, even after several months, the bees had not chewed them out. This may have the advantage of extending the treatment (since they still had oxalic acid crystals on the surface), but raises a huge caution to beekeepers not destroy oxalic acid?s utility as a mite treatment by leaving them in the hive.

One of the newest weapons in our arsenal against varroa are oxalic/glycerin strips, which provide release of oxalic acid over an extended period of time.
Oxalic/glycerin strip test
Treated 1 Dec
Hive No.      Nov mite count      Dec mite count
39                25                        1
41                23                        0
52                40                        1
69                22                        1

Table 2. Results of testing oxalic/glycerin strips on 4 hives. Note that at this time of season, we would have expected mite counts to drop to some degree even without treatment. However, these results, as well of those of Maggi, are certainly encouraging!
Practical application and a cautionary warning: the oxalic/glycerin strips show great promise, and I will continue testing. The downside, however, is that some beekeepers will of course keep them in their hives continuously (especially since the bees do not remove the strips), which will apply a strong selective pressure on varroa to develop resistance mechanisms to acids. Beekeepers have a history of shooting themselves in the foot by overusing treatments without rotation, resulting in resistant mites and bacteria. If you use these strips, please do not leave them in your hives continuously, as you may then inadvertently be breeding mites resistant to acids, which could ruin it for the rest of us.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2019, 11:47:10 pm »
I?ve used them this season. I have checked half my hives(about 15) for mites and I have found 1 mite so far.


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Awesome!!!   Thanks bgillham the article looks promising and your voucher even more so validates!! Thanks for your response!!
Anyone else?

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2019, 12:01:40 am »
Also Welcome to Beemaster bgillham Glad to have you join us!!
Phillip Hall

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2019, 12:16:10 am »
Bgillham: welcome to Beemaster.  Your first post, very informative.  I hope you continue.

Randy,s trials look promising.  I am not sure about mite resistant to Oxalic acid, to many modes of action for this acid, so resistant is questionable.

Good post Mr. Phil, looks promising, very promising.
Blessings
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2019, 12:19:52 am »
Bgillham: welcome to Beemaster.  Your first post, very informative.  I hope you continue.

Randy,s trials look promising. 
Good post Mr. Phil, looks promising, very promising.
Blessings

''I am not sure about mite resistant to Oxalic acid, to many modes of action for this acid, so resistant is questionable.''

I agree with you 100 percent Mr Van. I also questioned this one part of the article about the resistance, I do not see a possible way of varroa becoming resistant to acid, the mite would have to mutate into growing a hard exoskeleton for protection of its now soft outer layer.  I do not see that happening. Otherwise, Yes Sir, it does look promising!
 :grin: :grin:
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 01:12:04 am by Ben Framed »

Offline beesonhay465

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2019, 01:32:13 am »
i have one hive .swarm moved in memorial weekend. treated for 8 weeks total starting aug 15 the bees removed 1/2 of the first towel and propolized the rest. all remanents of the first towel removed after 1 month and a new towel applied.no further treatment this year. its getting too cold to want to open the hive

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2019, 01:34:55 am »
Thanks beesonhay465.  Congratulations on your swarm!

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2019, 10:38:00 am »
the shop towels are intended for use to trap Hive beetles.  I have tried them, and they do indeed trap beetles...but...they also trap what is for me an unacceptable number of bees.

On Oxalic acid.  It is impossible for Varroa to become immune.

On its timing.  I wait till the days are cold such that the whole hive is in the box...and there is no brood underway so no capped brood cells.  I also do not like to open hive that time of year, so for maximal assurance I hit them 3 times, 2 weeks apart instead of pawing around in there checking for brood.  That should be a bit of an overkill, because if I get timing right and there is no brood (leaving literally nowhere for a mite to hide), and all the bees are in because of cold, that 1st shot should do the job.  I just don't trust that I am that good at timing...thus three shots over 6 weeks.  I haven't started for this winter yet, but may this weekend.

Barry

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2019, 10:45:04 am »
the shop towels are intended for use to trap Hive beetles.  I have tried them, and they do indeed trap beetles...but...they also trap what is for me an unacceptable number of bees.

On Oxalic acid.  It is impossible for Varroa to become immune.

On its timing.  I wait till the days are cold such that the whole hive is in the box...and there is no brood underway so no capped brood cells.  I also do not like to open hive that time of year, so for maximal assurance I hit them 3 times, 2 weeks apart instead of pawing around in there checking for brood.  That should be a bit of an overkill, because if I get timing right and there is no brood (leaving literally nowhere for a mite to hide), and all the bees are in because of cold, that 1st shot should do the job.  I just don't trust that I am that good at timing...thus three shots over 6 weeks.  I haven't started for this winter yet, but may this weekend.

Barry

This research article has nothing to do with hive beetles. Strictly Mites. You must not have opened the link provided in the first post here?  Check it out and be informed.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2019, 11:18:25 am »
BAHBEEs , Reply Number 2 shows results of MITE reduction in 4 experimental hives with beginning mite counts and ending mite counts. Take a look at reply number 2 also.
Phillip

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2019, 02:33:23 pm »
Fine, but up till now the towels have been marketed for Beetles...not mites...

AND they still kill too many bees no matter what your actual target.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2019, 02:55:31 pm »
Fine, but up till now the towels have been marketed for Beetles...not mites...

AND they still kill too many bees no matter what your actual target.

BAHBEEs;  Again, please read the research paper that was provided in the first link. The towels are used in a totally different way than in SHB control. No comparison. We are not in any way talking SHB control here or the method that towels are used with this treatment method. If you will take the time to read the paper you will see that the sheets are saturated in Glycerin, therefore there is almost 0 chance bees being caught up in the sheets, as the sheets fibers (shop tile fibers) are SEALED, using a Glycerin Water and Oxalic additive for MITE treatment. I am not disputing that bees do get caught up in naked, unaltered shop tile sheets as used in SHB control. A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SUBJECT WITH TOTALLY DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES.   
I hope that helps.
Phillip

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2019, 04:23:42 pm »
Ah, so it is actually and oxalic acid approach.  Honestly I cannot see the point now that we have the vaporizer rigs.  They work well and are very easy.  I don't even have to open the hive which is great when you winter treat.  But to each their own.  It may be because I am a chemist, but the vapor approach is just so easy.

Like most...no I have not read the paper, sorry not the best approach but...  I may when I am not at work...where I read scientific papers all day.  I can easily slip a conversational post into my day with no disruption...reading a paper...that would start to eat into my real work, so it will have to wait for off time.

As far as the towels or beetles...I was very underwhelmed ;)

Offline Live Oak

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2019, 07:43:47 pm »
Ah, so it is actually and oxalic acid approach.  Honestly I cannot see the point now that we have the vaporizer rigs.  They work well and are very easy.  I don't even have to open the hive which is great when you winter treat.  But to each their own.  It may be because I am a chemist, but the vapor approach is just so easy.

Like most...no I have not read the paper, sorry not the best approach but...  I may when I am not at work...where I read scientific papers all day.  I can easily slip a conversational post into my day with no disruption...reading a paper...that would start to eat into my real work, so it will have to wait for off time.

As far as the towels or beetles...I was very underwhelmed ;)

Totally agree!  I have tried the shop towel method that Randy is currently working on and found that they do work but work best on hives that completely shred the towels up and remove them from the hives.  About 1/2 -1/3 of my hives propolized the towels and allowed them to remain inside the hive.  These hives benefited very little from the treatment. 

The shop towel method is a LOT of work and mess to deal with.  Now that ProVap has the ProVap 110 and ProVap EZ, I see little need for the shop towels. 

Lastly, in my state the shop towel treatment is ILLEGAL and will get you a ticket if inspected.  Being that I am one of the state bee inspectors, I no longer experiment with this method as it would not be eithical for me to be doing something that is not legal and thus setting a bed example for other beekeepers. 

The bottom line is that for OAV or OA to be effective, the bees must come in contact with the OA.  The more the bees come in contact with the OA, the more effective it is.  Other commercial beekeepers I have spoken to are mixing OA with powdered sugar at the rate of 5% OA mix with the sugar and they just sprinkling the powder mix over the top bars and let the bees clean it up.  They are in my opinion just using a different method of causing the bees to come in contact with the OA. 

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2019, 09:57:17 pm »
Live Oak, Mr. State Inspector: I would not mix Oxalic acid with sugar.  I realize you do not and we?re referring to other beeks.  That is a bad practice and would have impacts on the digestive tract, maybe affective various other organs of the honeybee.  The acids are not meant to be take internally by the bees.

Yes, a person can argue some vapors are bound to come in contact with bee mouth parts but the vapors work and many studies show no detrimental effects of OAV on bees used as directed.
Blessings
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2019, 10:13:52 pm »
Ah, so it is actually and oxalic acid approach.  Honestly I cannot see the point now that we have the vaporizer rigs.  They work well and are very easy.  I don't even have to open the hive which is great when you winter treat.  But to each their own.  It may be because I am a chemist, but the vapor approach is just so easy.

Like most...no I have not read the paper, sorry not the best approach but...  I may when I am not at work...where I read scientific papers all day.  I can easily slip a conversational post into my day with no disruption...reading a paper...that would start to eat into my real work, so it will have to wait for off time.

As far as the towels or beetles...I was very underwhelmed ;)

Totally agree!  I have tried the shop towel method that Randy is currently working on and found that they do work but work best on hives that completely shred the towels up and remove them from the hives.  About 1/2 -1/3 of my hives propolized the towels and allowed them to remain inside the hive.  These hives benefited very little from the treatment. 

The shop towel method is a LOT of work and mess to deal with.  Now that ProVap has the ProVap 110 and ProVap EZ, I see little need for the shop towels. 

Lastly, in my state the shop towel treatment is ILLEGAL and will get you a ticket if inspected.  Being that I am one of the state bee inspectors, I no longer experiment with this method as it would not be eithical for me to be doing something that is not legal and thus setting a bed example for other beekeepers. 

The bottom line is that for OAV or OA to be effective, the bees must come in contact with the OA.  The more the bees come in contact with the OA, the more effective it is.  Other commercial beekeepers I have spoken to are mixing OA with powdered sugar at the rate of 5% OA mix with the sugar and they just sprinkling the powder mix over the top bars and let the bees clean it up.  They are in my opinion just using a different method of causing the bees to come in contact with the OA.

''Now that ProVap has the ProVap 110 and ProVap EZ, I see little need for the shop towels.''
 
Randy's advantage Glycerin-Oxalic saturated shop towel method is also another way for the mites to come in constant contact with the Oxalic and is described as being a 1 time only treatment, up to three times a year is part of the advantage. But the obvious successful numbers in mite reduction as I also quoted and posted in my post number 2, is the real advantage. I have never read, seen or heard of such success with Oxalic used in any other form or method, including the vapor route where numerous back to back treatments with the vaporizer method are recommended to be used, as the success as Mr Oliver posted in this article as described in my post Number 2.  As I have stated before I love the vaporizer method. And have developed one of my own design. So the vaporizer method is nothing but a plus for me. However I am striving to be unbios in my opinion of any, new to me, natural as possible method of handling mites, researching, asking for opinions as now, to you and others, looking for any good advantage to help rid my bees of mites.

I am quoting Mr Oliver form post Number 2
''However, even after several months, the bees had not chewed them out.''

Quoting you 
''I have tried the shop towel method that Randy is currently working on and found that they do work but work best on hives that completely shred the towels up and remove them from the hives''

Two different answers. This puts beekeepers such as myself in a position as being not able to trust what Mr Oliver says at the most, or take anything he says with a grain of salt at the least on this subject. I have great respect for you and your opinions. I also have great respect for Mr Oliver with his many years of research.  With him I have never talked to or with, with you I have.  You have always given good information to me both publicly and privately via PM for this I thank you and hope to always be able to count on your good advice in future questions that I may have. 
Sincerely, Phillip 
 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 11:11:15 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2019, 11:35:51 pm »
Picture of Randies glycerin-oxalic coated shop towel. Does this look like the average shop towel strip?  :grin:

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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Has Anyone Used the Randy Oliver Shop Towel Mite Treating Method?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2019, 11:51:17 pm »
Phil, that looks like heavy cloth, like cotton flannel.  Just a guess on my part from looking at the pic.  I doubt the bees could tear up or get stuck in such finely woven material.
You are on to something that looks very promising directed at Varroa.

Blessings
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.