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Author Topic: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???  (Read 362 times)

Offline Ben Framed

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(3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« on: November 14, 2019, 03:44:21 am »
And Taylor here is the star witness?? Your kidding Me!! Is President right? Have the Democrats went nuts? You decide.....

 




Online sawdstmakr

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2019, 07:07:27 am »
With all of the hype about this for however long it has been going on, most people would be totally embarrassed after this came out. They would then, if they had any morals, would stop this fraud and make a public apology to the president and to the people. Not our Democrats and not our media, they just act like they were right an start making up more fake attacks.
Notice that every one of these attacks are actually things that the Democrats have actually done and they did it in a far worst way. But what they did is ok.
😡
Jim Altmiller

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2019, 09:03:36 am »
Yea.  Their star witness never talked to Trump, never overheard a conversation with Trump... but he has a lot of opinions and "impressions" about what happened.  No facts, of course and no eyewitness accounts to share.  Nothing that would be admitted in a court of law.
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Offline gww

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2019, 10:42:19 am »
Jim Jorden is not an honest broker and the president is guilty and any one not believing that is looking closing their eyes to common sense.  Running around and trying to cherry pick one little part of the big picture to hang your hat on does not change the big picture.   Saying others did bad and so it is ok to do the same does not mean something did not happen.  The president's supporters know he is not perfect.  They may not care but they know.  Saying what you did it out in the open does not mean that it did not happen and the president did make the ask out in the open as well as behind closed doors.   I guess you could take the position that when he ask in the open that he lies so much that you can't believe him?  Even he takes the position that it is not wrong for him to do what he is doing and it was perfect.  He is not taking the position that Jim Jorden has been using to defend him.  If you like him even if he does that type of thing, that is a different situation.  Nobody can tell you what you have to like.   Facts are still facts though. 
Cheers
gww

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2019, 10:57:16 am »
GWW,
I used to handle a lot of classified information. You cannot get near that material with extensive training.
If I had done .1% of what we know for sure Hillary did, 30 years ago, I would still be in the brig. They have no evidence of wrongdoing on Trump and tons of evidence against Hillary. She walks around untouchable and they constantly accuse him for what we know she did and it is perfectly ok with the DNC Media.  This country needs to hold corrupt politicians accountable or we as a country are in deep trouble.
Jim Altmiller

Offline incognito

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2019, 11:00:23 am »
I just read and reread the transcript of THE CALL several times. https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Unclassified09.2019.pdf

Where is the extortion? What am I missing? Where is the quid pro quo?

My takeaway is the call centers around corruption, incomplete investigations and overall swamp draining.

As far as the US Government meddling in foreign affairs and how the world really works, it does not get clearer than Joe Biden explaining it on video. But that is the point of foreign aid in the first place, no? (BTW - my sister-in-law works abroad for the US Department of State giving away money to foreign organizations. She has been stationed in several hot spots in the Middle East and Africa over the last decade. She is now back in a more developed country. No more barbed wire compounds for her.)

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/09/27/flashback_2018_joe_biden_brags_at_cfr_meeting_about_withholding_aid_to_ukraine_to_force_firing_of_prosecutor.html
I said, I?m telling you, you?re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you?re not getting the billion. I?m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I?m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you?re not getting the money. Well, son of a bleep. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time. - Joe Biden

I am curious about Hunter Biden and his qualifications to be on the BOD of a foreign company while Daddy is VP with a billion dollar checkbook.

There is enough there to start a legitimate investigation. Is it unreasonable to ask a foreign government to use its resources to investigate things happening in its own country, one with a soiled history in this arena? It all seems like fair game to me.


Edited to add:Read the qualifier at the bottom of the first page of the transcript of the call. To try to enforce an action using that as evidence as the foundation puts the whole prosecution on shaky ground.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 11:20:55 am by incognito »
Tom

Offline gww

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2019, 12:00:13 pm »
Jim and Tom
If your argument is that they all do it and so that makes it ok, that is fine.  That is not saying he did not do it which he did.  If he did it and you say you don't care, that is a different question.  The question is not what did every one else do.  That is all just smoke and no defense.  I don't tell you that you have to care that he did it.  He proved himself guilty when he released the money.  If draining the swamp was so important, he would still be holding the money.  When he got caught he released it and claimed no foul.  Then the smoke and mirrors began.
Cheers
gww

Offline kathyp

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2019, 12:17:01 pm »
Quote
I used to handle a lot of classified information. You cannot get near that material with extensive training.

Yup.  Intent has nothing to do with it.  If I had unintentionally left something on the desk that should have been locked up, it still was a punishable crime even if it was an accident. 

Quote
If your argument is that they all do it and so that makes it ok, that is fine.  That is not saying he did not do it which he did.  If he did it and you say you don't care, that is a different question.  The question is not what did every one else do.  That is all just smoke and no defense.  I don't tell you that you have to care that he did it.  He proved himself guilty when he released the money.  If draining the swamp was so important, he would still be holding the money.  When he got caught he released it and claimed no foul.  Then the smoke and mirrors began.

What did he do?  We don't know anything about anything and yesterday was no help.  There is no witness testimony to any crime.  The Mueller investigation turned up no crime. 
Impeachment is supposed to be for a crime.  That's why they are calling this an impeachment investigation.  They are still in search of the crime!

In this country, the president is in charge of our foreign policy.  Not the State Department, not Congress, not Intel.  We have had a long-standing problem with State Dept thinking they are in charge of foreign policy.  That's not a new thing.  They exist to implement the policy of the US and the president sets those policies. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline incognito

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2019, 12:58:50 pm »
Jim and Tom
If your argument is that they all do it and so that makes it ok, that is fine.  That is not saying he did not do it which he did.  If he did it and you say you don't care, that is a different question.  The question is not what did every one else do.  That is all just smoke and no defense.
Actually, the prudent man concept is well founded in our legal system. Some examples:

Reasonable or Prudent man is a hypothetical person used as a legal standard especially to determine whether someone acted with negligence. This hypothetical person exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct that society requires of its members for the protection of their own and of others' interests.

The prudent-person rule (also known as the "prudent man rule") is a legal maxim restricting the discretion allowed in managing a client's account to the types of investments that a prudent person seeking reasonable income and preservation of capital might buy for his or her own portfolio.

The concept of the ?reasonable person? is a legal conceit that is subject to differing interpretations in practice, but it is the legal system?s best tool to determine whether a person?s perception of imminent danger justified the use of protective force.
Tom

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2019, 01:02:14 pm »
GWW, what Jim and Tom are saying is, the dems did it and it was OK'ed. That opens it up to being done without breaking the law. If it were illegal before, the dems determined it was now legal, so anyone should be able to do it. After all, it was determined that doing it was legal. Jim and Tom are not saying an illegal act is OK because someone else did it. They are saying it was legalized when others done it and were cleared of breaking the law.
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Offline jvalentour

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2019, 01:07:16 pm »
GWW,
AOC (I love her) has stated publicly, as well as many other democrats, that impeachment is about winning the 2020 election. 
I can provide quotes if you wish.
Those are positions/comments by influential politicians you cannot ignore.

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2019, 01:10:38 pm »
GWW,
A group of democratic Senators, Bob Mendez (D-NJ) was one, sent a letter to the President of Ukraine saying in effect give us info on Trump and his staff or we will hold up defense funds.  Was that legal?

Offline incognito

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2019, 01:32:02 pm »
He proved himself guilty when he released the money. When he got caught he released it and claimed no foul. 
In all sincerity, please show me the hard evidence I am (and Kathy is) looking for. Provide links.
Where is that line between negotiating and influencing on one side and threatening and extortion on the other. You need to make a real strong case if you want to take drastic action against someone - not just sling mud in the shades of grey.

Put yourself in the President's position - every President. Roughly half of your subordinates support you and the other half wants to see you fail. Who do you trust to give you the whole unbiased truth? How do you deal with having information withheld from you by your subordinates, crimes being covered up? There could be factual basis in anything you hear through the grapevine and it would be negligent to ignore all of it, especially when Biden goes on the record telling of his victory by persuasion.

Arm twisting an ally is fair game. Breaking heads organized crime style is not. See - we even have phrases in our language to differentiate the two.

Of all the high crimes and misdemeanors committed by our government through history- including genocide of native Americans and expansion of our influence throughout the globe by brutality - how in anyone's imagination does this rise to the level of an impeachable offense?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 02:36:15 pm by incognito »
Tom

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2019, 01:33:24 pm »
Good post incognito.... Very well said.

Offline gww

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2019, 02:48:34 pm »
Iddee
Quote
GWW, what Jim and Tom are saying is, the dems did it and it was OK'ed. That opens it up to being done without breaking the law. If it were illegal before, the dems determined it was now legal, so anyone should be able to do it. After all, it was determined that doing it was legal. Jim and Tom are not saying an illegal act is OK because someone else did it. They are saying it was legalized when others done it and were cleared of breaking the law.

I used to use this argument all the time at work.  I used to tell management that they could not pick just this one person to enforce a rule on that they had not been enforcing up to that point.   I used to tell them that the only way that would be right would have been to notify everyone that they were going to start enforcing the rule aging before actually starting to enforce it.  It does not matter that it has already been a standard of conduct cause they had gave that up by not enforcing it.

However, a path of letting things get worse and worse as people get more and more lawless based on what those before have did is not something to reach for.  The goal can not be to reach for the bottom and make it ok.  The presidents problem is that he will not see that he could ever be wrong.  He only demands that he is right.  In this case, even putting him on notice would have no effect.  I always took the position that any discipline should be corrective.  Only do enough to get the point across that the actions are not to be repeated.

So the question becomes, do we want the president or others to use our government to gain advantage on personal stuff?  If the answer is that it is worth making a stab at not saying that this is good and acceptable, we have to do something.  The something has to be good enough to change a mind of someone who thinks they are not wrong.  Tom mentioned genocide.  It is a good example of something that was done and was not punished when done but could not be considered good.  I am sure the nuremberg trials were an effort to get the point across that even though there are those that have got away with it, society says stop, a good thing.

You all can say that you have not seen enough proof that the president was using the government for personal gain.

You can say it is ok that he did that because others did it.

I say it is a worth while effort to try and keep it from being ok to do and I do believe it would take a blind man to not think that our president was doing just that.  My opinion is that there is nothing wrong with trying to do whatever the minimum is to get the point across that this type of stuff needs to be wrong.

You can not clean up the swamp and also be in the race to the bottom where everything bad that has ever been done wrong is ok to do.

I understand kathys point also that is basically innocent until proven guilty.  I believe the democrats are correct on putting on an investigation and that there is enough for a prosecution and trial.  I will not be convinced of a defense of "well others have did it".  I believe the Mueller report and the senate report was notice that informed everyone that asking for foreign involvement was wrong.  So if you believe it is wrong and everyone was informed of that, what to do?   If you pick that it does not bother you and you are on a jury during a trial, then you really don't have to come up with any type of defense cause you are not bothered by the action.
Everybody has that choice though I doubt the founding fathers would have made that choice.
Cheers
gww

Offline incognito

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2019, 03:23:53 pm »
GWW,
From what propaganda has been released so far....all I know is that there is reasonable suspicion that the Biden family may have crossed a line.
That puts the President in a safe harbor asking for a new foreign government to look into what happened within its borders by a prior foreign government, particularly a prior foreign government that has a bad reputation.
It is the same as Pelosi and Schumer hiding behind the Constitution calling for investigating Trump once again while it is all too clear they seek gain for the Democratic Party.
The voting American public has as much as a right to know which candidate on either party's ballot line is in foul territory.

I can condone a bit of arm twisting to get the foreign government to cooperate, even Menendez' threat to withhold other funding (if true, I did not fact check that).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 04:40:35 pm by incognito »
Tom

Offline jvalentour

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2019, 03:35:58 pm »
You can read it here.
The letter is by it's self not threatening, it was actions of said senators afterwards that some have a problem with.  Others defend arm twisting by politicians.

https://www.redstate.com/elizabeth-vaughn/2019/09/26/read-shakedown-letter-three-dem-senators-sent-ukrainian-prosecutor-general/

Online iddee

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2019, 03:41:36 pm »
GWW, Trump is the only president in my or your lifetime that has, or died with, less money then when he was elected, so where is your personal benefits fantasy coming from?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline jvalentour

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2019, 03:44:46 pm »
Yes, Trump is a Billionaire.  He doesn't need to shake down anyone for money.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2019, 03:58:41 pm »
Gww where is the evidence? He said, he told me, As  I understand Mr so and so, and not only myself but so did so and so understand  the same thing I understood. Do you consider this proof? Ever since day one the far left has been hollering impeachment. For three years the obstructing has been going on and on and on Trump has to go. I do not know how he has managed to accomplish all that he has but  some how, some way, Mr Trump has made amazing improvements in America for Americans. The obstructing democrats have jobs to do but seem to focus on only one thing and one thing only, impeachment,  eliminating President Trump. This is known by watching all the leftest News, they have been obsessed! We have important issues that need to be attended to. All we get from the Democrats is impeach impeach impeach for THREE YEARS. Hard working Americans are fed up. Tell me please, What is the things that Mr Trump has accomplished that is such a thorn in the side to the left, concerning Mr Trump? Why does the left hate him so?

Offline incognito

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2019, 04:44:59 pm »
Why does the left hate him so?
And the right. Remember what is his name from Arizona?
Because he grabbed the brass ring before they did. The brass ring that they have been building up to grab their entire political lives.
It is their ball and how dare an outsider beat them at their game.
And he is a bit of an ass in public. You have to admit that.
Tom

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2019, 04:49:47 pm »
You can read it here.
The letter is by it's self not threatening, it was actions of said senators afterwards that some have a problem with.  Others defend arm twisting by politicians.

https://www.redstate.com/elizabeth-vaughn/2019/09/26/read-shakedown-letter-three-dem-senators-sent-ukrainian-prosecutor-general/
I did not see the entire letter in the link.

I could only find the first paragraph of the letter on-line. It is fair to infer an implied threat by discussing less US support for the relationship while strongly encouraging cooperation with the Mueller investigation. But there is no smoking gun. The first paragraph of the letter was well drafted - its message was conveyed.

This demonstrates again how big boys act in the big boy world.

We are writing to express great concern about reports that your office has taken steps to impede cooperation with the investigation of United States Special counsel Robert Mueller. As strong advocates for a robust and close relationship with Ukraine, we believe that our cooperation should extend to such legal matters, regardless of politics. Ours is a relationship built on a foundation of respect for the rule of law and accountable democratic institutions. In four short years, Ukraine has made significant progress in building these institutions despite ongoing military, economic and political pressure from Moscow. We have supported that capacity-building process and are disappointed that some in Kyiv appear to have cast aside these principles in order to avoid the ire of President Trump. If these reports are true, we strongly encourage you to reverse course and halt any efforts to impede cooperation with this important investigation.
Tom

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2019, 04:59:50 pm »
Why does the left hate him so?
And the right. Remember what is his name from Arizona?
Because he grabbed the brass ring before they did. The brass ring that they have been building up to grab their entire political lives.
It is their ball and how dare an outsider beat them at their game.
And he is a bit of an ass in public. You have to admit that.

You are correct ?and the right??
In the mean while America is in the balance. Sad isn?t it.

Offline incognito

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Re: (3 minutes). And This is The Star Witness???
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2019, 05:15:58 pm »
It is sad.
I never thought he would get past the Republican Convention. But the media grabbed on to his clown story and gave no press to the adults in the Republican room.
Pelosi and Schumer are repeating the same stupidity. How much press are their candidates getting while the clown show continues?
Meanwhile the more the Democrats pound him, the more his base will support him. (See the show Why We Hate on Discovery Channel.)

Trump was my Hail Mary vote. Really a vote for unnamed Kavanaugh and Gorsuch and.......(come on home Ruth)!
Trump is at his political best when he stays on script, or is it when he goes off script?
Tom