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Offline LizzieBee

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One of my hives died
« on: November 10, 2019, 02:29:14 am »
One of my three hives absconded or something. They left plenty of honey and pollen, and there were a few frames of brood that had dead bees that were halfway out of their cells. Kinda eerie looking. This hive was a split from this spring. One ten frame box. It was doing really well... until now. What do I do with the frames and stuff? I can't exactly split another hive to clean up after these guys since it is too late in the year.

Thank you for your suggestions in advance!
-Lizzie

Offline ifixoldhouses

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2019, 07:43:58 am »
I'd treat the rest of them for mites.
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Online van from Arkansas

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2019, 11:39:17 am »
Lizzie, question:  did you treat for mites,  if so what and how did you treat with.  Bees abscond for a reason, I am trying to figure why the bees left?
Van
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Offline LizzieBee

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2019, 03:06:03 pm »
I only treat by dusting them with powdered sugar. And I treated my other two hives using that method when I discovered the third hive died.

-Lizzie

Offline 2Sox

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2019, 03:27:04 pm »
I only treat by dusting them with powdered sugar. And I treated my other two hives using that method when I discovered the third hive died.

-Lizzie

We all have to find our way with treating.  Some are treatment free and are doing well.  I did that for years and never had a year with more than 25% winter survival. It's heartbreaking.  I've been doing Formic Pro/MAQS now for some years and my winter survival is never below 80%. I've added OAV in the spring and early summer.  Formic Pro around Labor Day and then again 4 weeks after the end of the last treatment. Last two years I was 6 for 6 - 100% survival.  Of course there are many other factors and variables involved but I'd recommend you consider treating with other than powdered sugar.
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2019, 08:59:37 pm »
I agree with 2Sox.  If you can make sugar dusting or no treatment work, then that's great, but sugar dusting is a VERY soft treatment.  I made a really hard go at sugar dusting with one of my hives this year.  I dusted them every single week without fail for almost the whole summer, and when I did a sugar roll a couple weeks ago to test their mite load, they were at almost 10%!  I'm treating them with MAQS right now.  I do have a hive that seems to be doing well with sugar dusting alone, but they were queenless at 2 different times this year, so they had 2 brood breaks, and the hive never got very big over the summer.   
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2019, 10:31:34 pm »
Lizzie, I agree with 2Sox, Member, ifixoldhouses, and Van. You would do well to heed there advice in my opinion.
Phillip

Online sawdstmakr

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2019, 05:40:52 am »
I agree wit everyone else who says that you need to treat. Sugar treatment requires it to bee done every 3 days and it still does not work well.
Since you are like me and don?t like to use chemicals, I recommend that you check into OAV treatment. It uses vaporized oxalic acid. Oxalic acid is naturally occurring in certain fruits and is naturally in honey.
Jim Altmiller

Offline cao

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2019, 01:10:35 pm »
Since the thread got a little sidetracked on treating a hive, I will throw my 2 cents in for what it is worth.  I haven't treated since I started and have fewer than average losses for my area (usually 10-20%).  Now back to the original question.

What do I do with the frames and stuff?

I don't know your weather.  In my area with freezing nights, I would just store them in a mouse proof unheated shed until next spring.  If you don't have freezing weather, you can either add the frames of honey to your other hives or freeze them for a couple of days and then store them.


Offline The15thMember

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 01:54:05 pm »
What do I do with the frames and stuff?
Good advice from cao.  I have freezing nights and not a lot of hives, so I store drawn comb in my unheated garage in big plastic bins to keep wax moths and mice out of them.  If you are going to give the honey from this dead-out to your other hives, I'd recommend freezing it first so that any mites or other pests that are on the combs don't get transferred to your other hives.       
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2019, 05:28:07 pm »
I agree wit everyone else who says that you need to treat. Sugar treatment requires it to bee done every 3 days and it still does not work well.
Since you are like me and don?t like to use chemicals, I recommend that you check into OAV treatment. It uses vaporized oxalic acid. Oxalic acid is naturally occurring in certain fruits and is naturally in honey.
Jim Altmiller

Jim I tend to agree with you about the sugar shake. I don't know how effective sugar shake really is. According to Dr Ramsey, the scientist which discovered that the mites feed on the fat bodies and not bee blood, mites mostly burrow between platelets beneath the body. I do not see where powered sugar will be of much effect in that critical section of the bee. On the back and sides of the abdomen yes, maybe so. Beneath the body and between platelets I just don?t see it happening?

Cao I have great respect for you and you posting advise. You have always given good accurate information. I will not question or dispute your results as I accept them as being honest here. You undoubtedly have a good strand of bee. If I remember correctly, Mr Bush,another Beekeepers whom I respect also is treatment free and successful. If that is wrong Mr Bush please correct me.   
Phillip

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2019, 01:12:52 am »
Seems like Deja Vu, every Oct/Nov.  Does it not, The15thMember ?
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2019, 08:49:29 am »
Seems like Deja Vu, every Oct/Nov.  Does it not, The15thMember ?

Yes, indeed.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2019, 09:16:55 am »
Seems like Deja Vu, every Oct/Nov.  Does it not, The15thMember ?

Yes, indeed.

And probably will be as long as we continue to have new beekeepers. That is why, in my opinion, the series that you two did last year should be placed in the white highlighted area making easy access to beginners as well as seasoned beekeepers. If it has not already been done.
Phillip 

Offline 2Sox

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2019, 10:12:41 am »
Since the thread got a little sidetracked on treating a hive, I will throw my 2 cents in for what it is worth.  I haven't treated since I started and have fewer than average losses for my area (usually 10-20%).  Now back to the original question.

What do I do with the frames and stuff?

I don't know your weather.  In my area with freezing nights, I would just store them in a mouse proof unheated shed until next spring.  If you don't have freezing weather, you can either add the frames of honey to your other hives or freeze them for a couple of days and then store them.

This is good, sensible advice. Just to add some extra insurance, place the entire box with frames inside a contractor bag and tape it up.  Just in case you don't get to it early enough, that's protection from wax moths.  I have a dedicated upright freezer for this purpose. I place an entire medium inside and then after a couple of days transfer it immediately into a contractor bag.
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Offline rgennaro

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2019, 11:52:25 am »

[/quote]

And probably will be as long as we continue to have new beekeepers. That is why, in my opinion, the series that you two did last year should be placed in the white highlighted area making easy access to beginners as well as seasoned beekeepers. If it has not already been done.
Phillip
[/quote]

is there any way to point me to this series? I agree that it would be a great resource for new beeks (me!)

Offline The15thMember

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2019, 11:55:51 am »
is there any way to point me to this series? I agree that it would be a great resource for new beeks (me!)
Here you go: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NvP-olm7vwMxPVH-Oi1CNHH70Wq913ym/view

That is why, in my opinion, the series that you two did last year should be placed in the white highlighted area making easy access to beginners as well as seasoned beekeepers. If it has not already been done.
Phillip 
If mods would like to sticky this link, feel free.   
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Online van from Arkansas

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2019, 07:45:45 pm »
Since the thread got a little sidetracked on treating a hive, I will throw my 2 cents in for what it is worth.  I haven't treated since I started and have fewer than average losses for my area (usually 10-20%).  Now back to the original question.

No treatment?  Is not splitting simply stated a mechanism of physical treatment.  Every split reduces the mite load by 50%, a three way split reduces by 1/3.  Splits reduce mite loads inwhich my understanding is a split is a mite treatment.  Mite treatment defined as a means of reducing varroa.  Treatment free and chemical free are two different statements.  I know of no treatment free beekeeper that last, I know of many chemical free beekeepers that prosper.

I just want folks to understand mites must be dealt with: splits, heat, hot chemicals, organic acids, or even small cell which has debates to this day.  There is no such thing as a hive not affected by varroa and subsequent viral load.

The subject is a dead out which to me appears to be mite related, so mite treatment is subject related.

For the record, M. Bush swears by small cell as a means of reducing mite load and I quite frankly, well, I believe Bush.  There are bonafide research articles that support and reject the small cell theory so believe what you wish.

Van
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 08:11:14 pm by van from Arkansas »
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2019, 08:39:35 pm »
Since the thread got a little sidetracked on treating a hive, I will throw my 2 cents in for what it is worth.  I haven't treated since I started and have fewer than average losses for my area (usually 10-20%).  Now back to the original question.

No treatment?  Is not splitting simply stated a mechanism of physical treatment.  Every split reduces the mite load by 50%, a three way split reduces by 1/3.  Splits reduce mite loads inwhich my understanding is a split is a mite treatment.  Mite treatment defined as a means of reducing varroa.  Treatment free and chemical free are two different statements.  I know of no treatment free beekeeper that last, I know of many chemical free beekeepers that prosper.

I just want folks to understand mites must be dealt with: splits, heat, hot chemicals, organic acids, or even small cell which has debates to this day.  There is no such thing as a hive not affected by varroa and subsequent viral load.

The subject is a dead out which to me appears to be mite related, so mite treatment is subject related.

For the record, M. Bush swears by small cell as a means of reducing mite load and I quite frankly, well, I believe Bush.  There are bonafide research articles that support and reject the small cell theory so believe what you wish.

Van




Good post Mr Van,
Phillip

Offline LizzieBee

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2019, 04:55:49 pm »
Thank you all so much! Next year I?m going to use the OAV treatment. It sounds much more promising.

The other two of my hives absconded. They didn?t leave anything like the first hive. It doesn?t make much sense to me because one of these hives had a queen who was clipped... so did she die and the workers left? All the honey is completely gone. There is some pollen left. It?s really sad. I want to try again in the spring but I don?t want to fail them again.

I thought I knew a lot about honeybees, but in reality I don?t.

Lizzie

Offline The15thMember

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2019, 07:00:47 pm »
Thank you all so much! Next year I?m going to use the OAV treatment. It sounds much more promising.

The other two of my hives absconded. They didn?t leave anything like the first hive. It doesn?t make much sense to me because one of these hives had a queen who was clipped... so did she die and the workers left? All the honey is completely gone. There is some pollen left. It?s really sad. I want to try again in the spring but I don?t want to fail them again.

I thought I knew a lot about honeybees, but in reality I don?t.

Lizzie
Sad to hear about your hives, Lizzie, but don't give up!  The first year can be hard; like you said, there is so much to learn.  But every beekeeper on this forum is still learning, from newbees like us all the way to the experts.  I'm sure you learned a lot in your first year, both from mistakes and from successes, and every experience is a good experience if you learn from it.  Now you are armed with this new knowledge to be a better beekeeper next year, which is what we are all trying to do, no matter how long we've been beekeeping.  Good luck!  :happy:             
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline incognito

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2019, 07:28:40 pm »
My biggest mistake....actually mistake is a kind word....my dumbest move was not treating a new package for mites with Apivar until September and then not doing a mid treatment / post treatment count before it got cold.
So I have no idea where I stand with the mites.
Is there anything I can do now to make up for my earlier neglect?

ETA:The forecast for two days next week is high temperature in mid 50 degrees, all other days are colder.
 
Tom

Offline jimineycricket

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2019, 08:31:52 pm »
Tom,
You can do a mite wash at 50 deg. Then if you need to you can do an oxalic acid dribble. Cheap & easy.
jimmy

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2019, 08:59:49 pm »
Tom,
You can do a mite wash at 50 deg. Then if you need to you can do an oxalic acid dribble. Cheap & easy.

jimineycricket sounds good to me. Tom, do you usually have many 50 plus degree days there in New York from this point on?  If not, you may want to go ahead and treat them anyway with OAV while brood is down. I don't think it will hurt anything if you treat, even if levels are oK since the OAV method has no fear of resistance build up.  I might even do it again in December?  I plan on treating all my hives, sort of an insurance policy, in December again anyway.
Phillip

Offline incognito

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2019, 02:12:58 am »
thanks Jimineycricket and ben
50 plus degree days will become rare as we get into December. See the second graph in the below links.

Average Weather in December in Central Islip New York, United States   Daily high temperatures decrease by 7?F, from 48?F to 41?F, rarely falling below 29?F or exceeding 59?F.
 Daily low temperatures decrease by 7?F, from 35?F to 28?F, rarely falling below 16?F or exceeding 47?F.
https://weatherspark.com/y/24508/Average-Weather-in-Central-Islip-New-York-United-States-Year-Round
https://weatherspark.com/m/24508/12/Average-Weather-in-December-in-Central-Islip-New-York-United-States#Sections-Temperature



 
Tom

Online van from Arkansas

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2019, 05:44:20 pm »
Incognito: no mite counts, so I have no idea where I stand with the mites.

May be to your surprise but I never do mite counts.  I will do dead mite counts after Oxalic acid vaporization, OAV.

My reasoning:
1.  I know my bees have mites.
2.  Mite counts are an estimate, not precise, with alcohol wash most likely being the most accurate.  I just cannot deliberately kill my bees unless I know they are diseased with contagious foul brood.  Alcohol certainly kills the bees,,, I can?t stand it, my bees trust me.
3.  I treat with a chemical that is already present in honey, not invasive as most treatments.
4.  My bees act very normal, all is well within 5 minutes after treatment with OAV.
5.  My queen laying is not interrupted, nor can I detect any negative side effects with treatment using OAV.
6.  Each hive is unique with actual number of mites, that is one hive my be hygienic whereas the next very susceptible and I have to many hives to count each hive with respect to mite number.
7.  With a provap 110, treatments take less time than methods use for counting mites.

Considering above, treatment is not invasive and I know mites are present so treating is a win for both me and the bees.  I see no need to estimate the number of mites prior to treatment with OAV when treatment is conducted in a timely manner.  Timely matter means after honey is extracted in early June and subsequent treatments on a monthly basis.

Blessings to All
Van
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Offline incognito

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2019, 07:07:37 pm »
Van, what you said makes sense to me. A master beekeeper at today's club meeting said today that from what he knows the acid treatment effectiveness drops significantly after 3 days.
Conveniently, I was able to pick up a package of Api-bioxal from my bee club today for $7 and 60 ml syringe barrels from my local pharmacy for less than $1 each.
So for a relatively inexpensive treatment per hive, I can do multiple treatments over the next few weeks. Or risk costly consequences.
That being said, the club stressed that it really are the bees emerging starting in August that need to be disease free (not mite free) for the best chance for winter survival.
Vaporizing seems to be more reliable than the drip method - and safer to me to administer.



Tom

Online van from Arkansas

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2019, 07:35:02 pm »
Thank you all so much! Next year I?m going to use the OAV treatment. It sounds much more promising.

The other two of my hives absconded. They didn?t leave anything like the first hive. It doesn?t make much sense to me because one of these hives had a queen who was clipped... so did she die and the workers left? All the honey is completely gone. There is some pollen left. It?s really sad. I want to try again in the spring but I don?t want to fail them again.

I thought I knew a lot about honeybees, but in reality I don?t.

Lizzie
Sad to hear about your hives, Lizzie, but don't give up!  The first year can be hard; like you said, there is so much to learn.  But every beekeeper on this forum is still learning, from newbees like us all the way to the experts.  I'm sure you learned a lot in your first year, both from mistakes and from successes, and every experience is a good experience if you learn from it.  Now you are armed with this new knowledge to be a better beekeeper next year, which is what we are all trying to do, no matter how long we've been beekeeping.  Good luck!  :happy:             

Member, expert advice, very nice reply, very kind of you with your encouraging words.  I wonder about the word EXPERT.  My Grandpa had bees, I was exposed to bees in the fifties, yea I mean 1950?s.  I obtained my first hive in the 1960?s.  But in no means do I consider myself an expert.  I?ve killed a lot of bees in my life with the best of intentions.  I have learned a very important lesson: what works one year may not work the next year.

Take a newspaper combine for example.  Some bees will quickly remove all traces of paper whereas another hive only feet away may leave the newspaper intact with only small doors cut through the newspaper.  I used to fold one corner of the newspaper, about one inch folded upon itself placed over stores, never brood in the far corner of the hive.  This is for an air vent, just about an area the size of a nickle, 0.5 sq in to the corner of the hive.  Then leave alone and all is well the combine worked well.  However, the last time I did a newspaper combine with one corner open for air,  well, let me tell ya, the top weaker queenless bees poured through the stronger bottom hive and killed the queen.  Five minutes after the combine, I see a ball of bees in front of the hive.  One dead queen in the middle.

Point made, what works well is not absolute.  Took me a long time to learn this, guess I was slow to learn as this technique has always worked for me,,, until.  I think I will always be learning and leave the term EXPERT for those endured.
Blessings
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Online van from Arkansas

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2019, 07:59:52 pm »
Van, what you said makes sense to me. A master beekeeper at today's club meeting said today that from what he knows the acid treatment effectiveness drops significantly after 3 days.
Conveniently, I was able to pick up a package of Api-bioxal from my bee club today for $7 and 60 ml syringe barrels from my local pharmacy for less than $1 each.
So for a relatively inexpensive treatment per hive, I can do multiple treatments over the next few weeks. Or risk costly consequences.
That being said, the club stressed that it really are the bees emerging starting in August that need to be disease free (not mite free) for the best chance for winter survival.
Vaporizing seems to be more reliable than the drip method - and safer to me to administer.

Yes, absolutely, you hit that nail on the head:  The bees in August or Sept depending on the area are the winter bees hatching.  Of utmost importance to rid mites as you pointed out.  Unfortunately, I found out the hard way the truth of your statements.

As a positive reminder, M. Bush is treatment free, I believe this.  However, I just can?t seam to put the right pieces together to accomplish what Bush has succeeded at for years.  Every time I try, I lose bees, I gave up on treatment free.  But wish success to those that try.

Blessings
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2019, 06:19:09 pm »
Member, expert advice, very nice reply, very kind of you with your encouraging words.  I wonder about the word EXPERT.  My Grandpa had bees, I was exposed to bees in the fifties, yea I mean 1950?s.  I obtained my first hive in the 1960?s.  But in no means do I consider myself an expert.  I?ve killed a lot of bees in my life with the best of intentions.  I have learned a very important lesson: what works one year may not work the next year.

Take a newspaper combine for example.  Some bees will quickly remove all traces of paper whereas another hive only feet away may leave the newspaper intact with only small doors cut through the newspaper.  I used to fold one corner of the newspaper, about one inch folded upon itself placed over stores, never brood in the far corner of the hive.  This is for an air vent, just about an area the size of a nickle, 0.5 sq in to the corner of the hive.  Then leave alone and all is well the combine worked well.  However, the last time I did a newspaper combine with one corner open for air,  well, let me tell ya, the top weaker queenless bees poured through the stronger bottom hive and killed the queen.  Five minutes after the combine, I see a ball of bees in front of the hive.  One dead queen in the middle.

Point made, what works well is not absolute.  Took me a long time to learn this, guess I was slow to learn as this technique has always worked for me,,, until.  I think I will always be learning and leave the term EXPERT for those endured.
Blessings
Thank you for the compliment, Van.  I think that one of most important things I've learned in my short year and a half as a beekeeper is just what you said, "what works well is not absolute."  There are so many factors involved with keeping bees and so many variables from one beekeeper or hive to the next, from different strains of bees, to the natural management style of the beekeeper, to the microclimate of the area where the bees are living.  I think it's also important to remember that bees are living creatures, and, as anyone who has worked with more traditionally relatable animals like dogs or horses knows, every individual is different.  And looking at the hive in the sense of the superorganism, I think that is true too.  Sometimes what works for one hive might not work for another (like you mentioned with the newspaper combine), not for any real reason, but just because each hive is different.  It's part of what makes beekeeping so interesting, but it also makes it hard as a beginner, because what you are really trying to figure out is what works best for you and your bees, and in some instances there's really no one who can figure that out but you, and sometimes the only way to do that is by trial and error.       
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Mamm7215

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2019, 06:57:38 pm »
I agree with Van, I don't sugar roll or alcohol wash, i look at mites on my bottom board.  If they're there, that's all I need to know.  I'll look at actual numbers after a treatment.  Formic Pro in spring/august and OAV from November on until I see little or no mites.  This is my 1st year with my bees and this is the schedule I've devised from my experiences here in BC, Canada.  I had super low mite drop almost all summer then it exploded the last week of August.  I wasn't able to treat until mid September with Formic.  That knocked the mites right down to almost nothing, then a month later it went off the chart again so it's oav right now.  So far so good.  I'd hate to lose my 1st hive so hoping they make it.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: One of my hives died
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2019, 08:33:19 am »
The problem with powdered sugar isn't that it doesn't dislodge mites, it's that any treatment while there is brood is not very effective:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm

No, I don't treat at all:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm

Things that contribute to succeeding at treatment free:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin