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Author Topic: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites  (Read 430 times)

Online Ben Framed

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A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« on: October 29, 2019, 04:47:28 pm »
Anyone here have experience with this this particular method?


Online The15thMember

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2019, 05:47:58 pm »
This is essentially homemade Mite Away Quick Strips/Formic Pro.  I can't speak to the safety of the home chemistry, but I'd imagine it works pretty well.  He did say that he applies the pads for 3 weeks in a row, so it mustn't be quite as strong or efficacious as the brand name stuff, since MAQS is only a one week treatment. 
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Offline saltybluegrass

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2019, 06:53:09 pm »
Is MAQS considered toxic?
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Online The15thMember

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2019, 07:16:13 pm »
Is MAQS considered toxic?
Toxic to people or toxic to bees?  It's safe for bees, although I've found it takes down any bees that are weakened from varroa or infected with viruses. Formic (the active ingredient) is a very strong acid, and is not safe to breath or touch with bare skin. It is however organic, and doesn't leave residue in the wax, which is why I like it. But just because it's organic does not mean it isn't dangerous stuff.   
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Offline saltybluegrass

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2019, 08:31:25 pm »
Organic is what I meant- ooops
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2019, 10:00:47 am »
This is essentially homemade Mite Away Quick Strips/Formic Pro.  I can't speak to the safety of the home chemistry, but I'd imagine it works pretty well.  He did say that he applies the pads for 3 weeks in a row, so it mustn't be quite as strong or efficacious as the brand name stuff, since MAQS is only a one week treatment.

Member I do not have any experience with MAQS/Formic Pro. Only what I have read do I have knowledge of either. I am thinking the MAQS has some sort of gel that slowly dries us as the formic is released, therefore taking a longer period of time before being used up. Sort of like a built in timer if you will. The method that the youtube fellow, (cardioman1999), does not have the luxury of the (slower) release. I am thinking that the home version must be used three consecutive times in order to achieve the similar required results?  In other words to have equal success with the purchased products, MAQS/Formic Pro, the home version must be used in the manner that he describes.  Did you notice that he emphasized the temperature in which he uses this product? I believe this to be imperative, and must be followed completely for the safety of the colony, as MAQS, from what I have read, also has temperature guidelines though somewhat more liberal than the home version shown here.  I also noticed that the uses this in the spring and OA in the fall.
 I am not recommending this as I have not tried it, but I do find it interesting and unique.  There has been similar (home) remedies done by researchers as described in another video that I recently posted under the disease heading. I talked to a fellow in Germany last night, (Hans Wurst), and he confirmed that formic is a very poplar mite treatment in Germany.
Phillip

Online The15thMember

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2019, 11:40:00 am »
Member I do not have any experience with MAQS/Formic Pro. Only what I have read do I have knowledge of either. I am thinking the MAQS has some sort of gel that slowly dries us as the formic is released, therefore taking a longer period of time before being used up. Sort of like a built in timer if you will. The method that the youtube fellow, (cardioman1999), does not have the luxury of the (slower) release. I am thinking that the home version must be used three consecutive times in order to achieve the similar required results?  In other words to have equal success with the purchased products, MAQS/Formic Pro, the home version must be used in the manner that he describes. 
Phillip
You are correct that the MAQS is a gel instead of a liquid, which is probably helping to control the vapors' release.  MAQS also has some sort of slow release paper on the outside of the gel.  I'll be treating 2 of my hives with MAQS pretty soon (my supplier is having some sort of shipping issue and it's taking forever for me to get the MAQS I ordered :angry:) and whenever I go to use that, I'll take a picture of what the MAQS looks like so you can see how it compares. 

Did you notice that he emphasized the temperature in which he uses this product? I believe this to be imperative, and must be followed completely for the safety of the colony, as MAQS, from what I have read, also has temperature guidelines though somewhat more liberal than the home version shown here.  I also noticed that the uses this in the spring and OA in the fall.
Yes, the temperature is very important when considering the safety of formic.  The official MAQS webpage says:
"Outside daytime temperature highs should be between 10C - 29.5C (50F - 85F) on day of application. Excessive temperatures (>33C) (>92F) during the first three days of treatment may cause excessive brood mortality and queen loss." 
The risk of queen loss is why many beekeepers use formic in the spring instead of in the fall.  I have only used MAQS twice so far, but I used it both those times on the same queen, and she's still doing great, so I've had no problems so far.  I think that the fact that I have used the product in temperatures near the lower end of its acceptable range may have contributed to it being safer for the queen.  We'll see how my other 2 queens respond to it here in a week or so.   
 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 01:18:05 pm by The15thMember »
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2019, 12:34:04 pm »
@ Member FYI
Thanks Member. I found a supplier on line that sells 4 inch by 7 inch pads as described by the video for thirty something dollars the quantity of 1000!  I am waiting to here back from the video producer as to the size pads he uses. I have not yet checked the price of formic.
Phillip

Offline Troutdog

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2019, 05:05:05 am »
Your treatment for a 2 deep brood is 65% formic @60-100ml depending on mite load.
This is called a FLASH treatment.
Get pads that can hold your mil requirement. Restaurant supply.com
Remove queen or drop or two of lemongrass on top of center brood frame.
Organic acid Is not organic but refers to its classification in chemistry.
Formic tends to bring on virus.
It is dangerous to both humans and bees.
It kills brood and queens.
A safer method from university of Maryland is worth a search. But still similar to above but at 50%. 50 MLS repeat several times.
Best to start in may and not wait till July build up if mites or you will never get a handle on mites.

Flash treatment is done in 6 hrs. If you use a paper towel.
You can reinstall a queen in a cage at that point when you remove pads.

DO NOT BREATH THIS  EVER!!!!! You will never recover the damage to your lungs.


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Online Ben Framed

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2019, 09:47:17 am »
Thanks Trout, this is a spin-off from the method described by the university of Maryland. I previously posted a video featuring the very method you described with the 50 % in the disease section.  Titled;
Alternative Way of Treating Bees for Mites. Since it went basically unnoticed I posted this different video here i(this section) n order to hear different opinions. The German People are big on formic and with great success. Germany is considered one of the more (greener) nations.   MAQS are also formic based. But are slower released. . I have tried to find the method of this gel use , (how to simulate this gel), and in my research came up with the study from the university of Maryland, along with these successfully used spin off methods and other similar methods used throughout Germany. Oxalic acid was once considered a no no so I have an open mind to formic until I can find evidence contrary.  So far , the only evidence against formic that I have found is when not used as prescribed, such as Queen loss . This fellow used 66 percent but remember the temperature range in which he uses.. I appreciate your chiming in and your valued opinion and would like to hear others as well.
Thanks
Phillip
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 11:49:31 am by Ben Framed »

Online Ben Framed

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2019, 04:30:50 pm »
Organic acid
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An organic acid is an organic compound with acidic properties. The most common organic acids are the carboxylic acids, whose acidity is associated with their carboxyl group ?COOH. Sulfonic acids, containing the group ?SO2OH, are relatively stronger acids. Alcohols, with ?OH, can act as acids but they are usually very weak. The relative stability of the conjugate base of the acid determines its acidity. Other groups can also confer acidity, usually weakly: the thiol group ?SH, the enol group, and the phenol group. In biological systems, organic compounds containing these groups are generally referred to as organic acids.
A few common examples include:
Lactic acid
Acetic acid
Formic acid
Citric acid
Oxalic acid

Offline Live Oak

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2019, 10:35:10 am »
My advice base from on my experience with MAQS is DO NOT USE FORMIC ACID products......PERIOD!  Formic acid is extremely toxic to honey bees.  Typical responses from formic acid products I have used such as MAQS is that the queen will immediately shut down and stop laying, it is not uncommon for the queen to die, the entire hive stops foraging, and about the only activity I observed was nurse bees dragging out large numbers of dead bees and larva.

I have tried MAQS twice. I followed the directions to the LETTER and applied them in low 70 to upper 60 degree temperatures. The entrance reducers were removed and an upper entrance opening for more than adequate ventilation. BOTH times my hives experienced what I consider to be excessive bee & brood kills, a couple of hive absonded and I am waiting and watching to observe if the surviving hives still have queens.

NOD customer support is of NO help and in my opinion takes a combative stand that is akin to attacking the customer and covering their corporate backside.

In my opinion and experience, I don't believe formic acid products are safe to use on honey bees as each and every time I have, the hive just stops nearly all activity other than cleaning out the dead bees and larva. No foraging or anything like that, the queens stop laying, and in more than a few cases die. I treated about 50 hives this season with these disastrous results and similar results last season but only a few hives. Fortunately I did not treat all of my hives with MAQS and the next day when I checked on the treated hives and observed the disaster that ensued, I immediately stopped and went back to OAV. I decided to give MAQS another try this season because I treated with MAQS at about 78 degrees last season thinking perhaps I treated them when it was too warm. By the way ALL of the hives that I treated with OAV are doing fantastic. I will NEVER use MAQS, Formic Pro, or any formic acid product again.........ever. The primary reason I used MAQS both times was that I commitments that did not allow me the time to do thermal or repeated OAV treatements.

I will continue on with OAV and thermal treatment.

My suspicion is that the MAQS are not being properly stored at or below 77 degrees as per NOD instructions in some cases by the retailer or perhaps the user. Storing MAQS in elevated temperatures I believe accelerates the formic acid's degradation of the paper wrappers around the MAQS and destroys the wrapper's ability to properly regulate the release of the formic acid vapor. This I believe to be the case whether or not the MAQS container has expired or not. (On edit) This may account for the wide variance in the experiences for MAQS users.

Again, I STRONGLY recommend NOT to use MAQS, Formic Pro, or any other formic acid product as there is no way to tell if they have been properly stored or not and retailers are selling them only a few weeks from the package expiration date without warning the customer about using expried MAQS. There are a more than enough Varroa Mite treatment products out there that are not nearly as harmful or destructive to your bees as well as risking the crap shoot of whether you may have purchased and improperly stored container of MAQS or use them close to or slightly after the expiration date. Would you buy personal medications or food for yourself or your family with a track record of problems like MAQS???

Repeat after me.......JUST SAY NO!

Offline BAHBEEs

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2019, 01:30:16 pm »
Not Sure why this is such a persistent subject but...

Why are you not just using the easily available and safe (as long as the applicator doesn't breath it) Oxalic acid vaporizer?

Formic acid just is to chancy.

Barry

Online Ben Framed

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2019, 11:29:52 am »
Not Sure why this is such a persistent subject but...

Why are you not just using the easily available and safe (as long as the applicator doesn't breath it) Oxalic acid vaporizer?

Formic acid just is to chancy.

Barry

Aa results reported By Kamon Reynolds of Tennessee Bees, with an experimental hive this very season, very high in mite counts, even after continued use via oxalic alone did not get the job done. Experience and experimentation reported here by our own Beeboy01 past 2018 season which OA was administered properly and timely was a real eye opener as to the desperate fight that he had with high mite counts even after treatment after treatment. Ian Steppler and Kamon Reynolds had a very good discussion on this matter in the comment section recently, with both agreeing that oxalic alone is not enough on one of Kamons videos.There are members here that use oxalic, (including myself being an oxalic user and so far have not lost a hive), even so and inspite of, have had colonies fail because of mites. The above reasons are just a few examples of why the persistence. So open mindedness and researching other promising methods, to use in conjunction with oxalic, in my opinion, should be welcome and appreciated by all beekeepers. HP has mentioned apivar, which is used by both Ian and Kamon along with oxalic. I plan to look into this product as well, especially the ingredients.
Phillip
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 08:21:52 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Troutdog

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2019, 08:14:58 am »
So how many mites do you really have in them there boxes.
This is the real question that dictates the treatment.
Mite washing is not particularly accurate and it is Recommended  you do  the 300 or 1/2 cup for a sample size.
30 mites per 300 is 10 per hundred.
Ok so how many bees in the box? Fully covered frames have over 1000 bees a seam of bees in between 2 frames would have roughly 2000 bees.
Count the seems _ x 2000
That's your bee population.
Divide you number by 100.
Multiply that number by 10 mites
There's your surface mite count.

Count your brood nest frames with brood 3200 cells per frame each side or 6400 per frame.

Take this number and multiply by 6 and there's your mite count emerging.

It will take apivar a full 8 weeks to get to the mites down.
I reccomend the application of oxalic jonnos pro vap at least 1x prior to apivar strips. Do not be cheap with your strips. 2 per brood nest and 1 per every 20k bees above that.

Spring and steady treatments through out season will eliminate  the fall mite chase using oxalic a year.
Thymol is awesome as well buy temp restrictions apply.
Also not recommended on juvenile colonies just starting up

Russians cage queen 12 days then treat oxalic. That makes for a 3 day window when mites can mate.

You will kill your bees before you kill all the mites in a bad year.
Question is were your bees virus resistant.

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Online Ben Framed

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2019, 10:03:14 am »
The active ingredient in a apivar is not thymol but Amitraz:N?-(2,4-dimcthylphcnyl)-N-[[(2>4-dimethylphcnyl)imino]methyl]-N-methyImethammidamidc,  Uless Amitraz and Thymol is the same thing?

Wikipedia
Amitraz (development code BTS27419) is a non-systemic acaricide and insecticide[1] and has also been described as a scabicide. It was first synthesized by the Boots Co. in England in 1969.[2] Amitraz has been found to have an insect repellent effect, works as an insecticide and also as a pesticide synergist.[3] Its effectiveness is traced back on alpha-adrenergic agonist activity, interaction with octopamine receptors of the central nervous system and inhibition of monoamine oxidases and prostaglandin synthesis.[4] Therefore, it leads to overexcitation and consequently paralysis and death in insects. Because amitraz is less harmful to mammals, amitraz is among many other purposes best known as insecticide against mite- or tick-infestation of dogs.[1] It is also widely used in the beekeeping industry as a control for the Varroa destructor mite, although there are recent reports of resistance (driven by overuse and off label use)reference needed here, questionable statement.

UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY WASHINGTON, D.C. 20460-0001 OFFICE OF CHEMICAL SAFETY AND POLLUTION PREVENTION MAY 21 2013 Veto-pharma, S.A. c/o Robert R. Stewart Technology Sciences Group 1150 18th Street, NW Suite 1000 Washington D.C., 20036 Subject: Amendment to add text "and aquatic invertebrates" to the environmental hazards section EPA Registration No. 87243-1 Submission Date: May 16.2013
Apivar? Strips for the in-hive control of mites (varroatosis) on honey bees ACTIVE INGREDIENT: Amitraz:N'-(2,4-dimcthylphcnyl)-N-[[(2>4-dimethylphcnyl)imino]methyl]-N-methyImethammidamidc OTHER INGREDIENTS: TOTAL: 3.33% 96.67% 100.00%

Offline Troutdog

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2019, 11:23:34 am »
Thymol is a plant based oil.
Amitraz is as you said a complex chemical.
Apivar  is amitraz strips
Apivar lite is thymol
Same company veto pharm.


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Online Ben Framed

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Re: A Unique Way of Treating for Mites
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2019, 03:07:24 pm »
Thymol is a plant based oil.
Amitraz is as you said a complex chemical.
Apivar  is amitraz strips
Apivar lite is thymol
Same company veto pharm.


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Thanks trout.