Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived  (Read 295 times)

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
  • North Mississippi
The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« on: October 24, 2019, 06:43:57 pm »

Online van from Arkansas

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 985
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2019, 07:20:58 pm »
Great story, I am familiar with the details, the details the author did not advise.  The true story indicated the horse, JimKey was literate, that is, the horse could read, write and calculate math.  One issue or fact was not mentioned.  The trainer would slightly move his head forward to signal the horse when the horse picked the correct number or letter.  The horse actually pick letters, numbers at random and when the correct letter or number was picked, a slight nod of the trainers head signals the horse and the horse then placed the correct number or letter to spell the word or sum in question.

This horse arouse suspicion by psychologists, many were fooled, however, one psychologist broke the code and caught the head nod.

Horses go by body language, I train quarter horses in Montana and the hardest thing to teach a person was body language is everything to a horse: such as fingers apart, represents a claw or fingers together represent a harmless flipper.  SO teaching weaning foals/colts I had to keep my fingers together, mocking a harmless flipper until they learned.

Cool story Mr. Ben, Phil.

Van
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10696
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2019, 09:02:05 pm »
That is a great story.
Jim Altmiller

Online The15thMember

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 565
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2019, 12:47:50 am »
Great story, I am familiar with the details, the details the author did not advise.  The true story indicated the horse, JimKey was literate, that is, the horse could read, write and calculate math.  One issue or fact was not mentioned.  The trainer would slightly move his head forward to signal the horse when the horse picked the correct number or letter.  The horse actually pick letters, numbers at random and when the correct letter or number was picked, a slight nod of the trainers head signals the horse and the horse then placed the correct number or letter to spell the word or sum in question.

This horse arouse suspicion by psychologists, many were fooled, however, one psychologist broke the code and caught the head nod.

Horses go by body language, I train quarter horses in Montana and the hardest thing to teach a person was body language is everything to a horse: such as fingers apart, represents a claw or fingers together represent a harmless flipper.  SO teaching weaning foals/colts I had to keep my fingers together, mocking a harmless flipper until they learned.

Cool story Mr. Ben, Phil.

Van
Mr. Van, I don?t wish to dispute you, but I think you may be thinking of another very similar story about a horse by the name of Clever Hans. 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans
Perhaps the ?Clever Hans Effect? was at play with Jim Key (where the horse was responding to unconscious cues from the humans), but I don?t believe Jim Key was ever proven to be a hoax. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online van from Arkansas

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 985
  • Gender: Male
  • Van from Arkansas.
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2019, 10:48:20 am »
Yes, Phil, you are probably correct.  It has been so long since I studied, like 30 years,  I presume the horse was the same animal.  I have long forgotten the name of the animal but remember well the details.
Blessings
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
  • North Mississippi
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2019, 10:50:07 am »
Van, Jim, Member, I am glad you liked it. I think it does make an interesting story and should be a interesting movie if presented correctly.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
  • North Mississippi
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2019, 11:07:10 am »
Yes, Phil, you are probably correct.  It has been so long since I studied, like 30 years,  I presume the horse was the same animal.  I have long forgotten the name of the animal but remember well the details.
Blessings

That was member that questioned. I am somewhere in the middle of both of your Analysis. I am thinking member is correct that this horse was never proven to be a gimmick. I use to train horses also and found they are creatures of habit and do learn things.  I do not really believe this horse could add or spell. And that is just my opinion Even though it was never proved that he was taking cues. I kind of think that he was taking cues from someone other than the trainer, therefore making it hard to pick up on. Most likely while spectators were watching both the horse and trainer with their full focus, another third-party was giving the cues., I will even go further to say that perhaps the presidents daughter was in on the skit. after all this was entertainment. We know the Roosevelts were horse people. Even so, he still was a very smart horse to be able to take cues and get it right every time. This should make a good movie if presented correctly, making a unity tool, instead of a politically correct propaganda divider Swaying sentiment and Ill feelings between black and white north and south.

Online The15thMember

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 565
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2019, 02:00:57 pm »
To be more accurate, Clever Hans wasn't a true hoax either; as in, his owner hadn't trained the horse to respond to cues in order to deliberately trick the audience into thinking the horse was smart.  Psychologist Oskar Pfungst investigated Clever Hans and found the horse was responding to unconscious cues from his owner or the audience or anyone who knew the right answer.  Per Wikipedia:

"Using a substantial number of trials, Pfungst found that the horse could get the correct answer even if von Osten [the horse's owner] himself did not ask the questions, ruling out the possibility of fraud. However, the horse got the right answer only when the questioner knew what the answer was and the horse could see the questioner. He observed that when von Osten knew the answers to the questions, Hans got 89 percent of the answers correct, but when von Osten did not know the answers to the questions, Hans answered only six percent of the questions correctly."

I wonder if perhaps Jim Key was responding in a similar way, sensing the correct answer based on tiny body language cues from the people in the room.  If this is true, what this shows me is how amazingly sensitive horses are to body language, as Mr. Van also pointed out.     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
  • North Mississippi
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2019, 03:05:06 pm »
Yes you are right about body language, small movements etc. when I was very small my family decided to enter me and one of my uncles ranch horses in a western pleasure competition. After many days of practice, the show date arrived. To make a long story short, I was the smallest, (youngest) participant, my horse did a superb job. At the very end, the judges ask each one of us to back our horse. My horse was well trained. She backed on just one of these small, undecidable cues. The judges were astounded as to how I ask my horse to back without moving any part of my body that could be detected by the eye.  They judges huddled up and came back and again ask be to back my horse a second time. Again the same result. Again they huddled up in conference. They brought the microphone and interviewed me on the spot and ask, ?son how did you get your horse to back without asking her?  My Uncle Jerry had given me instruction before the show,  ? do not tell anyone how you get your horse to back up? .  So when the judges ask me,  the whole place could hear my answer, I replied, I ask her to back up the way my Uncle Jerry taught me. The whole place busted out in laughter and I won the blue ribbon!! 
Phillip

Offline CoolBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 778
  • Gender: Male
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2019, 05:49:00 pm »
That is a great story Phillip. I can just picture the confusion on that young man's (your) face - trying to make your uncle happy, trying to answer the question, trying not to lie ... kids are great!  :grin:
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Online The15thMember

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 565
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2019, 07:27:21 pm »
Yes you are right about body language, small movements etc. when I was very small my family decided to enter me and one of my uncles ranch horses in a western pleasure competition. After many days of practice, the show date arrived. To make a long story short, I was the smallest, (youngest) participant, my horse did a superb job. At the very end, the judges ask each one of us to back our horse. My horse was well trained. She backed on just one of these small, undecidable cues. The judges were astounded as to how I ask my horse to back without moving any part of my body that could be detected by the eye.  They judges huddled up and came back and again ask be to back my horse a second time. Again the same result. Again they huddled up in conference. They brought the microphone and interviewed me on the spot and ask, ?son how did you get your horse to back without asking her?  My Uncle Jerry had given me instruction before the show,  ? do not tell anyone how you get your horse to back up? .  So when the judges ask me,  the whole place could hear my answer, I replied, I ask her to back up the way my Uncle Jerry taught me. The whole place busted out in laughter and I won the blue ribbon!! 
Phillip
What a good story!  :happy:  Sounds like you and your horse would have been good at dressage, since a big part of dressage competition is the rider's cues to the horse being undetectable to a viewer.     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
  • North Mississippi
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2019, 07:39:59 pm »
Yes you are right about body language, small movements etc. when I was very small my family decided to enter me and one of my uncles ranch horses in a western pleasure competition. After many days of practice, the show date arrived. To make a long story short, I was the smallest, (youngest) participant, my horse did a superb job. At the very end, the judges ask each one of us to back our horse. My horse was well trained. She backed on just one of these small, undecidable cues. The judges were astounded as to how I ask my horse to back without moving any part of my body that could be detected by the eye.  They judges huddled up and came back and again ask be to back my horse a second time. Again the same result. Again they huddled up in conference. They brought the microphone and interviewed me on the spot and ask, ?son how did you get your horse to back without asking her?  My Uncle Jerry had given me instruction before the show,  ? do not tell anyone how you get your horse to back up? .  So when the judges ask me,  the whole place could hear my answer, I replied, I ask her to back up the way my Uncle Jerry taught me. The whole place busted out in laughter and I won the blue ribbon!! 
Phillip
What a good story!  :happy:  Sounds like you and your horse would have been good at dressage, since a big part of dressage competition is the rider's cues to the horse being undetectable to a viewer.     

Actually that particular horse was one of my uncles working ranch horses. Later when I use to train colts myself, I took pleasure in the harmony of the relationship that was achieved. Body language was a very important aspect of my training.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2613
  • North Mississippi
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2019, 10:52:22 pm »
That is a great story Phillip. I can just picture the confusion on that young man's (your) face - trying to make your uncle happy, trying to answer the question, trying not to lie ... kids are great!  :grin:

I am glad you liked it Alan. You hit the nail on the head. That is exactly the position I was in..... :smile:

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17354
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: The Smartest Horse That Ever Lived
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2019, 12:37:34 pm »
A bit more about him here and also the story of what a smart alec the horse was.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin