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Author Topic: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.  (Read 829 times)

Online van from Arkansas

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WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« on: October 13, 2019, 04:47:09 pm »
Read the instructions for yourself, see pic.  Specifically stated: no harmful effect to honey bees, organic, see red arrow.

I sprayed my waxed out frames for wax moth control.  The honeybees discovered my waxed out clean frames after I mistakenly left my storage door open.  There was some pollen in the frames.  No problem I thought as the product is safe for honey bees, only effects catapillers??!!

Well, I swept out hundreds of dead honey bees that evening.  The sprayed frames full of dead honey bees.  This may have been a factor with the HIVE CRASH, I posted weeks ago.  See pic for your self.
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« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 04:59:44 pm by van from Arkansas »
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Online van from Arkansas

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Re: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2019, 04:52:20 pm »
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The pic is of the instructions on back of product.  Yes I read the instructions, SAFE TO HONEYBEES!  Ya right, OK, as I sweep up hundreds of dead bees next to the frames that were sprayed.
Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Online van from Arkansas

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Re: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2019, 04:54:03 pm »
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Bless the Beekeepers.  Dealing with venomous insects takes courage, patience, dedication and a desire to be with nature.

Offline kathyp

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2019, 05:58:09 pm »
BT should not kill honeybees.  It is used on wax frames to kill wax moth when frames are stored.  I'd contact the company and see what else is in there as a carrier or emulsifier.  It's also possible that this is not what killed the bees and it is a coincidence. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Online sawdstmakr

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2019, 07:17:36 pm »
I agree. Were the dead bees in the bottom of a stack of supers or were the bees dead on the comb?
If you place supers full of honey, stickies, stacked vertical, a bucket upright, where they cannot exactly t the bottom, a lot of bees will be dead in the bottom. They get so heavy that they cannot take off and die.
Could this be what happened?
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Offline rast

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2019, 08:50:55 pm »
 The only strain of BT that was originally deemed safe that I ever heard of was/is the aizawai strain first sold in the states as Certain. Story at the time was it was too costly to get it recertified to continue selling it in the States. It's now sold under brand name Xentari. I have heard all the stories of the shelf stocked strains that "didn't hurt my bees", but I won't use it and I'm no purist.     
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2019, 09:20:27 pm »
Mr Van, that is a tough one. I would have thought that you had a safe bet with this product. I did read the label that you posted and after the sentence of not harmful to bees and ladybugs, there was a comma saying (when used as directed). That may be the catch?  In my short time of keeping bees, it seems the deck is stacked against our little friends this day and time.
Blessings, Phillip

Let me add, the bees might have thought that anything that found in the comb was open season on robbing, not knowing the insecticide was involved. Consuming a large enough amount, might have done them in even though under normal conditions of use, would not be so much a harm to bees or ladybugs? Just a guess and only a guess.
Phillip
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 10:14:02 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Skeggley

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2019, 10:01:17 pm »
Hiya Van, I see BT used often over there with several strains, kurstaki and aizawai, (BtK and BtA). BtK seems to be the preferred for bee keeps. This is the first I?ve seen detrimental effects which leads me to wonder what it is mixed with, all info I can find only state the BT not it?s mixer. I have read something saying a petroleum product which would make sense as some sort of surfactant is required so the product sticks to the leaves on the plant.
Just a thought.

Offline Acebird

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2019, 08:36:13 am »
Imagine that, a pesticide killing bees when not used as directed.
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2019, 10:26:05 am »
Imagine that, a pesticide killing bees when not used as directed.

Ace I am not saying Mr Van did not use as directed.  I Did ask using a question mark at the end. As far as I know, that may be the way it is used? I also suggested that (since Mr Van accidently left the door open), and with the bees finding the comb, declared open season on any thing found in the combs, leading to the possibility of consuming to much of the stuff in this particular situation. I might have done the same thing as Mr Van, unaware of danger, especially after reading it is safe for honeybees and lady bugs.  I am thankful that Mr Van posted this here in order to warn the rest of us and prevent us from having the same unpleasant results.
Thank you Mr Van
Phillip
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 10:41:33 am by Ben Framed »

Offline Acebird

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2019, 08:49:37 am »
Imagine that, a pesticide killing bees when not used as directed.

Ace I am not saying Mr Van did not use as directed.

It is a garden pesticide not meant or approved for controlling wax moths on honey frames.
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Offline Beelab

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2019, 08:13:22 am »
Looking at the studies in Europe about the loss of 75% of all insects in the last 28 years, no beekeeper should use any insecticide. Bees are an insect. They are not immune to insecticides. Even if the label says so.
In fact, we should oppose any aerial insect spraying in our local areas. No insects, no people.

Spraying frames with insecticide is an easy way out and will make your bees sick and kill them slowly, even if they wouldn?t have found the frames now. 
There are traditional ways of storing frames with minimal damage.

Think back 30 years and how you had to scrape a thick layer of insects off your windscreen daily.
When did you last had to do this?

Online Ben Framed

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2019, 09:47:46 am »
Looking at the studies in Europe about the loss of 75% of all insects in the last 28 years, no beekeeper should use any insecticide. Bees are an insect. They are not immune to insecticides. Even if the label says so.
In fact, we should oppose any aerial insect spraying in our local areas. No insects, no people.

Spraying frames with insecticide is an easy way out and will make your bees sick and kill them slowly, even if they wouldn?t have found the frames now. 
There are traditional ways of storing frames with minimal damage.

Think back 30 years and how you had to scrape a thick layer of insects off your windscreen daily.
When did you last had to do this?

Beelab I realize your intentions are good ones and I sympathize with your intentions. I am not comfortable with the use of pesticides in farming either but at the same time I realize that we have to be able to produce enough food to feed the world. Let me ask, what traditional methods are you referring to as to storing frames? This will be my first year to attempt to store frames. I am thinking that some type of crystal has been mentioned here (beemaster). I feel safe in saying, guessing, that it is probably not natural or organic? If you read closely you will see that the product that Mr Van used is organic. I looked at the label and it explains this product is biodegradable.  Which means it is capable of being broken down naturally, decomposed by nature, by bacteria and other natural organisms. which should mean, (once his frames were sprayed then stored in an area where no bees were allowed to enter, and as we read, he had them in such a place but forgot to close the door), then the material should have had plenty time to have been broken down by nature before the need of the comb to be put back in service again. This is unlike the unnatural harsh Neonicotinoids insecticides that are being used widely by farmers today on a large scale. Even that debate has been hashed out here. No insecticide no natural clothing material, (cotton), no insecticide no crops, no crops no people. I do not like the idea that they went to the use of Neonicotinoids. I am thinking that Neonicotinoids have been banished in Europe? If this is true, we should learn more on this subject in time since Neonicotinoids have been the focus and blame of the decline on insects in Europe? in other words, you should see a steady increase in insects in Europe each year since the banning of Neonicotinoids. If so, and crops are still substantial, then we all should learn much concerning Neonicotinoids? 
As far as what Mr Van used, there should have not been a problem excluding leaving the door open by accident. This is just my opinion. 
Phillip
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 11:16:08 pm by Ben Framed »

Online van from Arkansas

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2019, 11:45:21 am »
Beelab, good morning.  For your note:  BT is not your typical pesticide.  An insect specific toxin derived from a bacteria.  The chemical is sunlight deactivated, safe to spray on fruit and eat same day per directions, although I would not.  This particular BT is directed at larva stage or catapiller as some might call the pest.  BT is not supposed to kill wax ADULT moths or bees, just the larva stage.  This is the whole point of this thread which some fail to understand.  YouTube and you will find BT is specifically used for wax moth larva prevention on bees wax frames.  Oh yes, I realize YouTube is full of error.  But the point remains, this specific strain of BT is directed at larva and supposedly only larva.  This is why I posted a warning as the product is not acting as described.  I was trying to warn my fellow beeks.

Unfortunately we both eat BT commonly.  Most corn in the grocery is BT corn, hard to find non BT corn.  Another subject for the coffee house.

Thanks Ben Framed for the facts, clearing up some Lose ends for me.
Blessings
Van
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Offline paus

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2019, 11:55:34 am »
Just to remind ourselves.  cyanide, arsenic, risen, and many others are natural and organic. Correction, arsenic is not organic but is a natural occurring element.


Online Ben Framed

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2019, 12:20:16 pm »
Just to remind ourselves.   and many others are natural and organic.

We are learning as we go.. cyanide, arsenic, risen, are tough for sure and will most likely kill bees and ladybugs.
The active ingredient in this product that Mr Van used is is Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies kurstaki strain SA-12 (Btk).
I would not be nearly so concerned with Mr Vans product used. As I said we learn as we go so if I error please correct me.

According to Wikipedia,
Bacillus thuringiensis serotype kurstaki (Btk) is a group of bacteria used as biological control agents against lepidopterans. Btk, along with other B. thuringiensis products, is one of the most widely used biological pesticides due to its high specificity; it is effective against lepidopterans, and it has little to no effect on nontarget species. During sporulation, Btk produces a crystal protein that is lethal to lepidopteran larvae.[1] Once ingested by the insect, the dissolution of the crystal allows the protoxin to be released. The toxin is then activated by the insect gut juice, and it begins to break down the gut.[2]
 
Friends, I have work to do so I had better stop for now and earn my keep!!  I don't want to put myself in a position that I have to call myself into the office and reprimand myself!!      :wink:    TTYL
Phillip


Online van from Arkansas

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2019, 12:25:49 pm »
Phil, you did your homework.  Very good presentation of BT.
Blessings
Van
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Offline kathyp

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2019, 01:12:06 pm »
Quote
Think back 30 years and how you had to scrape a thick layer of insects off your windscreen daily.
When did you last had to do this?

when I stopped driving cars with flat windshields.   :cheesy:  OH, except my truck.

van, if you ever get an answer about what else is in that bottle please update us!
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
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Online van from Arkansas

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2019, 05:03:44 pm »
Kathy, I will never know.  Obliviously it other than the Bt strains listed.
Van
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 05:16:21 pm by van from Arkansas »
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Offline CoolBees

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Re: WARNING: This SAFE organic pesticide killed my bees.
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2019, 10:27:50 pm »
Van, this is a good thread. Thanks for posting. Frame storage was a concern of mine when I got into beekeeping.

I thought I might mention: since I've gone foundationless, I don't really have to worry as much about frame storage. The honey gets harvested, and then I cut most of the wax out and melt it for other uses. (I always freeze & then thaw frames prior to extraction).

I only mention this as an alternative for those others who might be reading this.
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