Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?  (Read 833 times)

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« on: October 04, 2019, 10:09:28 pm »
Has anyone here looked into alternative ways to deal with the Varroa Destructor?  This may be worth looking into.

Long-term evaporator for formic acid for the safe ...
https://rodneybeekeepersclub.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/manual-nassenheider.pdf
NASSENHEIDER Professional Evaporator is a long-term evaporator for the continuous evaporation of formic acid 60% ad us. vet. for the varroasis (Varroa destructor) treatment of the honey bee (Apis mellifera). NASSENHEIDER evaporator is a bee drug approved in Germany.

The Nassenheider Evaporator - Dave Cushman
http://dave-cushman.net/bee/nassenheider.html
The Nassenheider evaporator frame. My method of installation of the Nassenheider unit is somewhat different, as my intended use was with essential oils rather than formic acid.The bees more likely to build comb in any spaces during periods of use that may be much longer than that used with formic acid for varroa treatment, but I see no reason why it would not be as effective for acid evaporation.

ACID VAPOR BATHS IN THE BEEHIVE - Bee Care
https://beecare.bayer.com/bilder/upload/dynamicContentFull/BeeNow/BEENOW_acidvaporbathi6296aew.pdf
PROPER APPLICATION OF FORMIC ACID FOR VARROA MITE CONTROL ACID VAPOR BATHS IN THE BEEHIVE It?s an irritating affair for the Varroa mites: Formic acid is popular among beekeepers to protect their honey bees from these dangerous parasites. But if it?s applied incorrectly, the acid can also harm the bees. A new study sheds light on the process.
Nature?s weapon
Formic acid not only protects against mites; the chemical, which was first
extracted by scientists from some ants species, is produced naturally and used
by the ants as a defense spray to ward off their enemies. The larvae of the puss
moth can also squirt formic acid up to 30 centimeters when it feels threatened.
Other creatures such as jellyfish, scorpions and beetles employ the substance
to defend themselves, too. Even plants exploit the power of the chemical: The
urticating hairs of stinging nettles also contain formic acid.

Offline Live Oak

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
    • Tractor Farm and Family
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2019, 01:42:27 pm »
Interesting but I am not so sure it would be very easy or inexpensive to import. 

Offline Live Oak

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
    • Tractor Farm and Family
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2019, 10:38:29 am »
You may want to read my post in another thread about using formic acid products.  Formic acid products of ANY kind are off my list of treatments.  Especially MAQS and Formic Pro. 

Offline BAHBEEs

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 55
  • Gender: Male
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2019, 01:29:56 pm »
Not Sure why this is such a persistent subject but...

Why are you not just using the easily available and safe (as long as the applicator doesn't breath it) Oxalic acid vaporizer?

Formic acid just is to chancy.

Barry

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2019, 11:31:38 am »
Not Sure why this is such a persistent subject but...

Why are you not just using the easily available and safe (as long as the applicator doesn't breath it) Oxalic acid vaporizer?

Formic acid just is to chancy.

Barry

As results reported By Kamon Reynolds of Tennessee Bees, with an experimental hive this very season, very high in mite counts, even after continued use via oxalic alone did not get the job done. Experience and experimentation reported here by our own Beeboy01 past 2018 season which OA was administered properly and timely was a real eye opener as to the desperate fight that he had with high mite counts even after treatment after treatment. Ian Steppler and Kamon Reynolds had a very good discussion on this matter in the comment section recently, with both agreeing that oxalic alone is not enough on one of Kamons videos. There are members here that use oxalic, (including myself being an oxalic user and so far have not lost a hive), even so and inspite of, have had colonies fail because of mites. The above reasons are just a few examples of why the persistence. So open mindedness and researching other promising methods, to use in conjunction with oxalic, in my opinion, should be welcome and appreciated by all beekeepers. HP has mentioned apivar, which is used by both Ian and Kamon along with oxalic.  I plan to look into this product as well, especially the ingredients.
Phillip
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 08:21:15 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17416
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2019, 09:18:39 am »
The assumption is that the acid does less harm to the bees than the Varroa mites.  This may or may not be true.  Especially in the long run.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2019, 09:40:43 am »
The following is a very informative article Published by  Bee Culture on this subject.

http://beeculture.com/winter-bees-formic-acid-used-right-a-successful-combination/
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 04:31:39 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline salvo

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 242
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2019, 09:56:52 am »
Hi Folks,

Where's Finski when you really need him?

Finski: I teached 6 years ago oxalic acid trickling in this forum, and I cannot see a sign of learning.

Sal
Salvo

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2019, 11:20:51 am »
The following is a very informative article out on ivy Bee Culture on this subject.

http://beeculture.com/winter-bees-formic-acid-used-right-a-successful-combination/

Let me add this article was published July 2015

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2019, 10:32:09 pm »
Hi Folks,

Where's Finski when you really need him?

Finski: I teached 6 years ago oxalic acid trickling in this forum, and I cannot see a sign of learning.

Sal

I do not know Sal, but I would like to have him chime in. He has not posted since I have been a member here, that I can recall.
Phillip

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17416
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2019, 09:19:25 am »
He regularly would get banned for violation of the rules of conduct by being rude and condescending.  But I agree I miss his knowledge.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Live Oak

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
    • Tractor Farm and Family
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2019, 11:34:24 am »
After my recent experience with MAQS.  I would not use nor recommend the use of ANY Formic acid product for use on honey bees for ANY reason........not unless you just want to play Russian Roulette with your queen and don't mind wiping out 50% of your bees in strong colonies and killing the rest of the colonies.  You would be far better off with repeated OAV on a 4 - 5 day schedule or better yet, if temperatures permit, thermal treatment.   

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2019, 12:16:14 pm »
After my recent experience with MAQS.  I would not use nor recommend the use of ANY Formic acid product for use on honey bees for ANY reason........not unless you just want to play Russian Roulette with your queen and don't mind wiping out 50% of your bees in strong colonies and killing the rest of the colonies.  You would be far better off with repeated OAV on a 4 - 5 day schedule or better yet, if temperatures permit, thermal treatment.

Thank you Mr Live Oak. I am always seeking something to help. Actually OAV is a benefit to me as I have designed a vaporizer of my own as mentioned in another topic titled, (ProVap EZ 110). There I recommended you designing a thermal treatment custom fit to fill your needs. I may look into something like this myself. Should be fairly easy to do?
Phillip
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 03:44:26 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline ifixoldhouses

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 19
  • Gender: Male
  • 1st year bkpr 12 hives
    • My Youtube
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2019, 05:05:20 pm »
After my recent experience with MAQS.  I would not use nor recommend the use of ANY Formic acid product for use on honey bees for ANY reason........not unless you just want to play Russian Roulette with your queen and don't mind wiping out 50% of your bees in strong colonies and killing the rest of the colonies.  You would be far better off with repeated OAV on a 4 - 5 day schedule or better yet, if temperatures permit, thermal treatment.

I concur Formic pro is off my list too. I put it on 12 hives when the first 3 days were below 85, and it caused 3 swarms, the queens left with a couple hundred bees, what a mess, trying to figure out who was who.
Backyard Bees NC  1st year bkpr 12 hives

Offline minz

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 283
  • Gender: Male
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2019, 12:37:00 am »
I like formic flash treatments in summer. I like to get the honey off in July and if my numbers are high treat. Last few years my numbers have not spiked until August and temperature is a big factor with this stuff.  I am in Oregon, on the west side of the mountains and we only get on average 12-90 degree plus days per year. I make my own fumigator boards and mix my formic. I also have used formic pro and MAGS without issue.
I use OAD (going to the G rather than the sugar) December (Between Thanksgiving and Christmas). No mite checks. Again, note location, They close school here on a forecast of snow. Not hard to target a nice 40 degree day
I tried OAV and never got past the driveway test. Nasty, get a good respirator and use it. I think it is the only treatment that I have taken off the plate. Yeah I know people here sell it and I will get a backlash like a post suggesting Trump acts like an 8 yr old with a phone

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/messin-with-varroa-2014/
My old link to making the fume board and the detailed set up seems to have moved.
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/

Poor decisions make the best stories.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2019, 08:55:40 pm »
Minz, that was an excellent article published by Randy Oliver. Thank you very much for posting. Yes, the other link was not available. Again Thanks.
Phillip

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2019, 10:16:46 pm »
You may want to read my post in another thread about using formic acid products.  Formic acid products of ANY kind are off my list of treatments.  Especially MAQS and Formic Pro.

Mr Live Oak, before you completely disregard formic, you may want to view this article by Randy Oliver, as posted here by minz. I admit that the treatment guidelines are very strict, but may be worth the extra effort in the long run? If you have time to study this please let me know your thoughts on this research. I value your opinion. That goes for everyone else.  If you have the time to read this research, your further opinions are appreciated.
Thanks, Phillip

://scientificbeekeeping.com/messin-with-varroa-2014/
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 11:16:21 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17416
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2019, 07:33:20 am »
I don't see how formic acid is a very reliable treatment.  The actual dosage is too dependent on the weather.  Hot weather and you have an overdose.  Cold weather and you have an under dose.  It's known to kill queens and no matter what anyone says it obviously kills brood.  Not to mention running all the bees out of the hive...
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2019, 10:24:32 am »
I don't see how formic acid is a very reliable treatment.  The actual dosage is too dependent on the weather.  Hot weather and you have an overdose.  Cold weather and you have an under dose.  It's known to kill queens and no matter what anyone says it obviously kills brood.  Not to mention running all the bees out of the hive...

Yes your statements are true Mr Bush. All the above was discussed in the article by Randy Oliver. Even queen loss and how he and his team were  successful in overcoming this problem. And a problem it was. That is why I said that I admit the treatment guidelines are very strict. I feel safe in assuming that you read the article yourself as I take it you are always seeking to learn more also. Most likely you may have read it when it first was published. 😊.  If a person had the data before him, data that would pinpoint these conditions concerning weather, temperature, etc.  The flash treatment described could be a useful tool in saving a severely infested hive, such as the ones Mr Oliver described. I will go even further in saying, Mr Vans hive could have possibly been saved by this flash treatment method? Perhaps it is better to loose some brood, in extreme cases as opposed to the whole hive? Unless one is striving for treatment free seeking superior genetics as Mr Van, Thus willing to sacrifice hives or a hive to weed out the overcome infested hives. Even so, with this approach, one must be very careful in his timing to be certain to make sure, such a hive does not become a mite bomb for the rest of the Apiary.  To protect the rest of the apiary this may be a useful tool, even for treatment free beekeepers. (Get rid of the mites and pinch  the undesired genetic queen and replace her with another when it is safe to do so). These are just food for thought comments, I very much appreciate your replying as you are a legend in my mind and I am honored that you  comment on any thing that I might say, any time. These are just my thoughts and please correct me where I may error.
Sincerely,
Phillip
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 11:35:04 am by Ben Framed »

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17416
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2019, 12:02:05 pm »
> I feel safe in assuming that you read the article yourself

I did, but I've read so much in so many places I don't remember exactly what Randy said that was different.  I do seem to remember he was in favor of flash treatments, which of course are not approved so therefore they are illegal (the label is the law).  But flash treatment makes the most sense to me as it would even out the effects of the ambient temperature.  It still has issues, in my opinion, but it fixes the biggest issues, which is control over the dosage.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2019, 02:14:59 pm »
> I feel safe in assuming that you read the article yourself

I did, but I've read so much in so many places I don't remember exactly what Randy said that was different.  I do seem to remember he was in favor of flash treatments, which of course are not approved so therefore they are illegal (the label is the law).  But flash treatment makes the most sense to me as it would even out the effects of the ambient temperature.  It still has issues, in my opinion, but it fixes the biggest issues, which is control over the dosage.


Yes sir, I believe you are correct. At least that is kind of the way he explained it. He was definitely controlling the dosage during his experiment. With different dosages He obtained different results.
Mr Oliver also used other Types of treatments along with keeping charts on the effectiveness of each.

Offline minz

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 283
  • Gender: Male
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2019, 05:02:58 pm »
I have a power point of the study and how to actually do the flash formic (as well as the details that are so important in this treatment) I was trying to send it to Ben but I can not figure it out.  The document is a pdf that is only 762 KB. Any suggestions on how to post it? I saved it as a JPG but each one printed to a separate file.
Poor decisions make the best stories.

Offline Live Oak

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
    • Tractor Farm and Family
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2019, 07:55:20 pm »
You may want to read my post in another thread about using formic acid products.  Formic acid products of ANY kind are off my list of treatments.  Especially MAQS and Formic Pro.

Mr Live Oak, before you completely disregard formic, you may want to view this article by Randy Oliver, as posted here by minz. I admit that the treatment guidelines are very strict, but may be worth the extra effort in the long run? If you have time to study this please let me know your thoughts on this research. I value your opinion. That goes for everyone else.  If you have the time to read this research, your further opinions are appreciated.
Thanks, Phillip

://scientificbeekeeping.com/messin-with-varroa-2014/

I did read Randy's article.  Randy in my opinion leaned a bit towards sugar coating his results but the pictures of the Cluster$#@! that ensued after he applied the MAQS was more than enough for me to get the message. 

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/an-early-summer-test-of-mite-away-quick-strips/

Randy and many others who he kept in contact with had the same issues I did. 

If you want to kill you beehive and queens go ahead and use MAQS.  The recent experience I had was more than enough for me.  I am so angry off that I will probably NEVER buy ANYTHING from NOD again.........maybe even Mann Lake and Kelleys who sold me the MAQS. 

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2019, 10:16:40 pm »
You may want to read my post in another thread about using formic acid products.  Formic acid products of ANY kind are off my list of treatments.  Especially MAQS and Formic Pro.

Mr Live Oak, before you completely disregard formic, you may want to view this article by Randy Oliver, as posted here by minz. I admit that the treatment guidelines are very strict, but may be worth the extra effort in the long run? If you have time to study this please let me know your thoughts on this research. I value your opinion. That goes for everyone else.  If you have the time to read this research, your further opinions are appreciated.
Thanks, Phillip

://scientificbeekeeping.com/messin-with-varroa-2014/

I did read Randy's article.  Randy in my opinion leaned a bit towards sugar coating his results but the pictures of the Cluster$#@! that ensued after he applied the MAQS was more than enough for me to get the message. 

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/an-early-summer-test-of-mite-away-quick-strips/

Randy and many others who he kept in contact with had the same issues I did. 

If you want to kill you beehive and queens go ahead and use MAQS.  The recent experience I had was more than enough for me.  I am so angry off that I will probably NEVER buy ANYTHING from NOD again.........maybe even Mann Lake and Kelleys who sold me the MAQS.

Mr Live Oak, when I ask you to look into the Flash treatment data, I had totally moved away for the MAQS issue. I was referring to  (Experiment #2 The Formic Flash Treatment), under the title  ://scientificbeekeeping.com/messin-with-varroa-2014/) this experiment was what I was asking for your opinion about and for you to please check into.
Not the MAQS, As you had already expressed your opinion on this. And I heard you loud and clear. And I symphysed for you then as well as now.

Experiment #2The Formic Flash Treatment) was what I was asking your opinion about. I had found this information afterward, later, when I found it in the link ://scientificbeekeeping.com/messin-with-varroa-2014/,  I ask your opinion on this article, wanting your unbiased opinion of this experiment. Mr Oliver pulled no punches with this flash experiment. He told where he made mistakes and killed queens but also told of how he corrected these mistakes.
Phillip
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 10:42:25 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2831
  • North Mississippi
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2019, 03:35:44 pm »
He regularly would get banned for violation of the rules of conduct by being rude and condescending.  But I agree I miss his knowledge.

Mr Bush, I am just guessing, could it be that Finaki was misunderstood? When dealing with translations , it has been my experience that meanings can and do get twisted and misunderstood and sometimes lost. Translating languages by anyone less than an expert can dislodge the meaning of an Interpretation. This can sometimes be incorrect with what the speaker was trying to express. These misunderstood interpretations will continue to happen without an expert Interpreter. Wars may have been started by well meaning speakers only to have their translations totally misunderstood? just food for thought.
Phillip

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17416
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Formic Acid The Varroa Mite Terrorizer?
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2019, 08:48:57 am »
It's a combination of cultural differences and language differences.  He was VERY blunt and sometimes insulting.  He was also pretty smart and experienced.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin