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Author Topic: Migratory vs Telescopic lid  (Read 800 times)

Offline Skeggley

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Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« on: October 04, 2019, 07:58:18 pm »
Hi guys, something I?ve been wondering about for a while is why here in Aus it?s the norm to use migratory lids and it seems in the US telescoping covers are the norm.
Telescoping covers generally need an inner cover, migratory lids don?t. Although hive mats are often used nowadays with M lids.
It?s easy to add insulation in a M lid as there is room inside it.
I hear of T lids blowing off, my hives are in a windy area with M lids and they have never blown off.
Ventilation holes are usually in M lids, not surprising as they are needed when transporting hives.
What is standard in other countries that use Langstroth hives?
What lids do migratory beekeepers in the US use?
Thanks.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2019, 08:19:55 pm »
Hello Skeggley from Down Under, Phillip from America. I could be considered a (newer beekeeper) as I have been keeping bees for 19 months. I mentioned this first as what I am about to tell you is sure to receive criticism from my older, more experienced fellow beekeepers. I use neither telescoping nor migratory lids. What I do, which is different for either of the two choices that was mentioned, I use Adventec lifetime warranted 3/4 4X8 sheets cut down to the exact size of my brood and super boxes and use the small cut down sheets for my lids. I do not have or use cleats, nor any type of reinforcement for the sides or ends, simply the cut down to fit sheets for a smooth, even fit used as my tops. I have had winds up to 60 MPH and have never lost a top. I have found that my bees ALWAYS propolize these sheets to the top box and I usually have to pry them off! I would not change for either of the previous mentioned. Now, if I were a commercial beekeeper, I would not chance the moving of this system without reinforcing the placement of said lids. What I would do and have done, is using a T40 stapler, simply pop a couple staples on each side of the tops to the boxes and they will not come off. So here is one answer, I hope you get more as I am always interested in what other beekeepers are doing.
Thanks, Phillip 

Offline Skeggley

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2019, 10:49:34 pm »
Hiya Phil, I?m sure you won?t cop criticism on this forum mate, we all know there?s more than one way to skin a cat.  :wink:
To me using a rigid flat board as you do makes more sense than a telescoping lid. Easier to pry off.
I use the space ( roughly 40mm or 1 5/8? ) in a M lid to gauge a colony?s strength. When this space gets crowded or comb is built it?s time to add another box or harvest. Often just popping the lid for a peek is my inspection. Most nucleus boxes have exactly as you use and either have a latching system, screw holes or come stapled down, the latter being my least favourite.
On the front and back sides of the M lids here in the west (best place in the world to keep honey bees) there are 25mm (1?) screened holes that allow ventilation and these get closed and opened by the bees as required.
Although we don?t have SHB here over east they are starting to use clear hive mats and the wretched beetles can be seen and squashed in their bee jails on top of the frames.
Are hive mats used with telescopic lids?
I?m trying to understand the reason why M lids aren?t more commonly used elsewhere.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2019, 11:44:24 pm »
'Although we don?t have SHB here over east they are starting to use clear hive mats and the wretched beetles can be seen and squashed in their bee jails on top of the frames.
Are hive mats used with telescopic lids?
I?m trying to understand the reason why M lids aren?t more commonly used elsewhere.''

I like the idea of the clear hive mats and the opportunity to see and kill the beetles. As far as hive mats used with telescopic lids, I personally do not know, however, you have sparked an interest from my standpoint with the clear mats. What type material is used for this type mat that you are familiar with?  I do not see the benefit of using a telescopic top. Especially since the hive beetle have arrived.  I am going to take a guess, perhaps it could be that we in America have a really diverse type terrain along with different types of weather. From hot tropic type such as Florida and just hot in Southern California, to really cold winters here in the lower 48 such as Minnesota etc.  I am going to guess, and this is only a guess, that some keepers cling to the telescopic lids for colder weather purposes?  Really as stated, I do not know. Here in Northern Mississippi the winters are usually cold at times, occasionally reaching the single digits F. Low to mid 20's F are not uncommon many nights and days also, but this varies. It can be 25 one day and 65-70 a few days later and back down she goes.  :shocked:

Online The15thMember

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2019, 01:20:34 pm »
I have some hives with telescoping tops and some with migratory covers.  When I got my initial startup hives, I got telescoping tops because, as you mentioned Skeggley, most hobbyists in the US seem to have them.  After a year of using them though, I purchased migratory covers for my splits this past spring.  Migratory tops are cheaper and they have better ventilation with a screened inner cover because of their open sides.  My only question is if they will hold up as well as my telescoping tops in my damp climate, since I couldn't find any metal migratory tops, only wooden ones.  If I find that it's a problem, I could always add some metal to them, I suppose.  I strap all my hives down, just for my own peace of mind, regardless of lid type.     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Skeggley

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2019, 07:40:54 pm »
Aah, now we?re talking different migratory covers. Do the ones you use hang over the sides at front and back? The ones here sit flush on all sides, 50mm in height with a galvinised tin skin on the top for weather. It seems like the ones you use are only temporary for transport hence no weatherproofing.
What you say about weather makes sense as the T cover acts as an eave but we have rain here too and for your next quiz night Australia actually gets more snow than Switzerland annually.

I?m assuming the clear plastic used for the hive mats are PVC but can?t be sure and I?m not sure I?d use soft PVC, although being labelled as food safe it smells and have heard it off gasses but I?m no chemist.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2019, 09:33:08 pm »
'I?m assuming the clear plastic used for the hive mats are PVC but can?t be sure and I?m not sure I?d use soft PVC, although being labelled as food safe it smells and have heard it off gasses but I?m no chemist.''

I just googled plastic sheeting and came up with visqueen; and visqueen is how it was spelled. This sheeting runs from 1.5 Mil to 10 Mil.  A roll of this sheeted material will go a long way good for many hives when cut to the proper size. As far as food safe, I do not know yet.
 I am assuming your first paragraph is directed toward member as my lids are flush mount to the edges of my boxes also. Let me say a few words about the advantec material. This stuff is terrific!!  With plywood alone for my tops, I always had warpage. Using adventec this season I have experienced NO warpage zero, and no swelling of material! Advantage leaves a smooth even fit all the way around my top box making it easy for the bees to seal as they always do. I no longer have the problem of SHB sneaking in the top area! Though I have been told painting is not necessary, I do paint this material, especially on the outer edges liberally.  I also use the same material for my bottom boards and always have enough scraps pieces from a 4x8 sheet to build a 3/4 lip for the bottom board, for the bottom box to rest on. I have had no problem with burr comb at the bottoms and can not say enough good things about Adventec!  They should pay me for publicly praising this product but I do not have any ties with them except usage.
 :grin:

Online The15thMember

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2019, 04:37:34 pm »
Aah, now we?re talking different migratory covers. Do the ones you use hang over the sides at front and back? The ones here sit flush on all sides, 50mm in height with a galvinised tin skin on the top for weather. It seems like the ones you use are only temporary for transport hence no weatherproofing.
What you say about weather makes sense as the T cover acts as an eave but we have rain here too and for your next quiz night Australia actually gets more snow than Switzerland annually.
I have covers that have hang-over on the front and back, with the sides open for ventilation when used with a screened inner cover.  I have to have a lot of ventilation in my hives or I get mold.  Our climate is just so humid.     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2019, 09:06:01 am »
Telescopic are more common in the North and less common in the South.  Migratory covers are just a flat cover.  Usually they have a cleat on the front and back to keep them from sliding around too much.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2019, 09:29:19 am »
Telescopic covers go with inner covers.  It is because of the inner cover that the outer needs to be telescopic.  A beekeeper decides to use inner covers or not and that dictates whether to use telescopic or not.
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Offline paus

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2019, 12:20:39 pm »
Just a suggestion.  Try an old discarded swimming pool for plastic under the hives and for inner covers.  It is very durable and the price is right.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2019, 09:53:19 pm »
Just a suggestion.  Try an old discarded swimming pool for plastic under the hives and for inner covers.  It is very durable and the price is right.

Yes, the price is right. A swimming pool liner should be great! Good idea Paus, I like it! I am thinking, if a person were to stop at a pool company and tell them our need and use for such a lining, they would probably be glad to oblidge. No telling how many liners a year these companies replace.
Thanks Paus,
Phillip

Telescopic covers go with inner covers.  It is because of the inner cover that the outer needs to be telescopic.  A beekeeper decides to use inner covers or not and that dictates whether to use telescopic or not.

Thanks Ace good explanation.
Phillip
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 11:12:37 pm by Ben Framed »

Online Michael Bush

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2019, 12:37:11 pm »
I cut 3/4" CDX (Adventec might be better, but I have no experience with that) to fit the box.  No overhang.  No cleats. No inner cover.  No other cover.  I put shingle shims on the botom to make the entrance and then reduce the entrance to 2 1/4".

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Hives1.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeeCamp2018/HiveEntranceAndCalendar.jpg

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Offline Skeggley

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2019, 04:33:36 am »
Pool liners are PVC and I remember reading soft PVCs degas toxic fumes. Clear hive mat material should be available over there as it is over here and we're 20 years behind you guys, even more here in the West!😀
Back to lids, how are telescopic lids, and I include your migratory lids as telescopic, ventilated?

Online The15thMember

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2019, 01:38:20 pm »
Back to lids, how are telescopic lids, and I include your migratory lids as telescopic, ventilated?
You mentioned in your 2nd post that the migratory covers in your country have screened holes in them for ventilation.  To my knowledge, none of the common covers in America have ventilation holes.  As I mentioned previously, I use screened inner covers for ventilation, and they work well with my migratory covers.  For my telescoping tops, since they telescope over the open edges of the inner covers, I just put a shallow on top of my inner cover to get the top up high enough so that the sides are exposed.  For a setup with less ventilation (like I'm going to be putting on some of my hives today, since it's getting cold here now), I use solid inner covers that have an entrance hole cut in them.  Our telescoping tops are longer than the hives, so if I push the top front, the entrance will be accessible to the bees, and will help to give a little top ventilation.  Does that make sense?  I'll take a picture of my setups today, so you can see what I mean.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online The15thMember

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2019, 08:42:04 pm »
Here's one of my hives with a migratory cover.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
I have a solid inner cover on this hive right now, because it's been cool here lately, but normally throughout the summer I have a screened inner cover, which has the sides open for ventilation. 
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Here's one of my hives that has a true telescoping top.  You can see the opening of the screened inner cover between the top 2 boxes. 
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online The15thMember

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2019, 08:49:20 pm »
Here's a shot up under a telescoping top. 
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
If I position the top this way, the bees can have access to an upper entrance hole, which is cut into the edge of a solid inner cover. 
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

With the equipment I own, those are the setups that I use.  Forgive me if any of this is obvious.  I'm not sure what you guys have in your country as opposed to what we have over here. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2019, 09:07:20 am »
If I position the top this way, the bees can have access to an upper entrance hole, which is cut into the edge of a solid inner cover. 
I do the same and have a word of caution.  When using an escape board for clearing the supers you must remember to close off this vent.
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Offline paus

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Re: Migratory vs Telescopic lid
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2019, 10:38:35 am »
I make my screen top almost like yours, I do not cut the "saddle on the sides I just ease the completed top down onto the table saw and cut a <1/8 inch slot about 6" in the sides this way there are fewer unwanted guest, such as roaches, and SHB if they crawl up the box.  Thanks to Jim, shavings in the top work wonders for moisture control in the winter and for summer insulation


« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 11:17:48 am by paus »