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Author Topic: Has Trump gone to far?  (Read 3760 times)

Offline Acebird

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2019, 09:13:44 am »
having over 1/2 the country in the "haves" category is pretty good, don't you think?

This is why your ruler is broken.  Only 6% of the country is in the "haves" category.  Maybe 13-14% are in the "have-nots" category.  The rest of the country is in hurting shape because they are supporting both.  So that makes 94% hurting.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2019, 11:58:18 am »
Quote
Only 6% of the country is in the "haves" category.  Maybe 13-14% are in the "have-nots" category.  The rest of the country is in hurting shape because they are supporting both.  So that makes 94% hurting.

Depends on how you define "haves".  I have all I need and more, but I am in the middle.  The comfortable end of the middle, but still the middle.

The poverty rate, no matter what the government has done or is doing, runs around 12%.  According to the census bureau, it is currently below 12%.  Remember that our stats cover US territories as well as states.  We have spent trillions on the "War on Poverty", yet the % of people defined as poor remains the same.  Maybe we are doing it wrong? Or maybe there will always be a % of people living in poverty for one reason or another?  It is also important to remember that while the % is static, the members of the population are not.  People move in and out of both wealth and poverty.

Median middle-class income is up.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/12/us/census-median-income-poverty/index.html

Job prospects are better with the ability to find a job that both pays more and has better income. 

While there are, and always will be, pockets of the economy that suffer, overall, people are doing better. 

If you think things are not going well, what changes would you make?

They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2019, 12:53:24 pm »
Ask anyone if they have it better than their grandparents.  Virtually everyone does.  My Grandpa was barely making a living shoveling coal 16 hours a day when he was a young man.  I was pretty poor when I was young and just married, but never had to do that.  I don't think I even could have and I had a lot of stamina...  Virtually everyone is better off than their Grandparents and usually better off than their parents.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2019, 12:59:56 pm »
Cameron: Okay Ferris, can we just let it go, please?
Sloane: Ferris, please. You've gone too far. We're going to get busted.
Ferris: A: You can never go too far. B: If I'm gonna get busted, it is not gonna be by a guy like that.
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Online iddee

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #84 on: October 07, 2019, 02:17:20 pm »
""Neither you or me are a haves or have-nots.""

""Where in the constitution does it say the government should support the stock market that only benefits the haves?

The market is benefiting me. Am I a haves or am I not? Make up your mind. Also, if the stock actually collapsed, where would ALL, the haves, thhe have-nots, and all others get their food and supplies? Think 1930, and worse.

""Very good! So now that the illegals are walled off from entering you can get 25 cents an hour more for picking fruits and vegetables.  Wonderful, just it time for your apple crop.""

11 million plus illegals here now and more coming daily. Just how many does it take to pick our fruits and vegetables? 

ACE, PLEASE, GET JUST A LITTLE BIT BELIEVABLE.  You're starting to sound like adam shifft.  OOPS. 2 mistakes. Didn't use capitals and hit the f instead of the t.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline kathyp

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2019, 04:59:14 pm »
Quote
11 million plus illegals here now and more coming daily.

And that number is from years ago.  Never updated.  Estimates put the number now at well over 20 million. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline incognito

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2019, 07:22:24 pm »
Presidents in general are given waaaaayyy too much credit or blame for ups and downs in the business cycle.
That being said, some amount of credit is earned and blame deserved.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 09:38:39 am by incognito »
Tom

Offline incognito

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2019, 07:29:17 pm »
The have nots in the United States have more than most of the world's population.
We take for granted the improvements in lifestyle and health gained over the past 75 - 100 years, yet we still complain.
Increases in life expectancy is a great measure of progress.
Tom

Offline herbhome

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2019, 08:07:56 pm »
The have nots in the United States have more than most of the world's population.
We take for granted the improvements in lifestyle and health gained over the past 75 - 100 years, yet we still complain.
Increases in life expectancy is a great measure of progress.


Ditto
Neill

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2019, 10:35:51 pm »
The have nots in the United States have more than most of the world's population.
We take for granted the improvements in lifestyle and health gained over the past 75 - 100 years, yet we still complain.
Increases in life expectancy is a great measure of progress.


Ditto

Actually many have nots in the USA have it better than the richest kings of the world of old, (in many ways), if we are comparing to time before electricity, modern medicine, etc.

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #90 on: October 08, 2019, 06:58:56 am »
The have nots in the United States have more than most of the world's population.
We take for granted the improvements in lifestyle and health gained over the past 75 - 100 years, yet we still complain.
Increases in life expectancy is a great measure of progress.

We throw parents in jail here for letting their children live in conditions that are way better than most children around the world live in.
Jim Altmiller

Offline salvo

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #91 on: October 08, 2019, 07:16:40 am »
Hi Folks,

I saw a little meme a few days ago:

Some kids cry for a I-Phone.

Some children cry for food.

Remember when we were kids:^Eat your supper! Clean your plate. There are kids in the world that are starving.^

Parents don't say that anymore.

Sal
Salvo

Offline Acebird

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #92 on: October 08, 2019, 09:30:34 am »

While there are, and always will be, pockets of the economy that suffer, overall, people are doing better. 
Although a year to year statistic doesn't tell the real story this is what you call better?
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Young Americans, age 15 to 24, saw their median income drop 5.8%,
Sure, while all of my brother and sisters did better then our parents and grandparents that is not true for all of our children and Lord knows how bad it will be for their children.  I think this trend is quite common.
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If you think things are not going well, what changes would you make?
In a dream world if I could make the changes...
HEALTHCARE  Remove employee provided healthcare.  It gives an unfair advantage to larger companies.  It makes it much harder to start a business.  Remove the special benefits from all government employees.
EDUCATION  Equalize the standards across the nation for public schools.  If the well to do want something better they can send their kids to charter schools that have no government assistance of any kind.  I like the idea of community colleges.  Low cost funding should be provided on a 3 month basis for grades C and above.
MANUFACTURING/ TAXES  No tax on companies that produce goods with american workers.  A flat income tax rate.  No filing taxes.

INFRASTRUCTURE  A new branch of the government.  Government take over of our rail system eliminating cross country trucking.  Government take over of our power grid.  NO government funding to private enterprises.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #93 on: October 08, 2019, 10:03:42 am »
Ace I have considered the rail system and it?s advantages and disadvantages myself. Even back in the days of old, we had the old mule skinners (teamsters), which picked up loads of goods at the rail heads and distributed to smaller towns and communities throughout.  This system worked pretty well back in the day. Now in our modern times, the rail systems would need to be vastly improved along with many, many new rail roads built just to achieve a basic moving system. A major undertaking. Even still, trucking would be heavily required to move these goods from rail heads, which rail head sizes would be mind boggling, to the desired locations. We are talking a major undertaking. Probably more money than can be mustered. This would have to be done with some government backing but led by private citizens such as Leland Stanford did back in the day. Public stock and trading would have to be included. I just do not see it happening. The only man that could have an inkling off chance of building such a program as a private citizen, would be Donald Trump and he is to old to start. And too busy fighting the backward thinking ways of the Democrats and needed as our President It would take years.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 10:17:53 am by Ben Framed »

Offline incognito

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #94 on: October 08, 2019, 10:21:48 am »
Brian,
In all sincerity, please explain to me why you feel the government is capable of taking over anything and would ultimately administer anything in a fair and efficient manner?
I am only a few years younger than you and I have reached the opposite conclusion in my years of watching the government in action.
Tom

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #95 on: October 08, 2019, 12:59:22 pm »
>HEALTHCARE  Remove employee provided healthcare.  It gives an unfair advantage to larger companies.  It makes it much harder to start a business.  Remove the special benefits from all government employees.

It does cause a lot of complexities and problems that healthcare is tied to employement.  I'm a contractor and change employees all the time and every time it changes my health insurance, dental insurance etc.  But as an individual I can't negotiate as good of a rate.  Not even close.

>EDUCATION  Equalize the standards across the nation for public schools.  If the well to do want something better they can send their kids to charter schools that have no government assistance of any kind.  I like the idea of community colleges.  Low cost funding should be provided on a 3 month basis for grades C and above.

Better yet, let's just standardize some tests for a bacherlor and master and doctorate like we have for a GED.  Then you can just study on your own or go on youtube and watch lectures until you can pass the test.  If you did that and didn't charge for the tests, then you would have free education including free college.

>MANUFACTURING/ TAXES  No tax on companies that produce goods with american workers.  A flat income tax rate.  No filing taxes.

Not a bad idea.  Paul Harvey was fond of saying you can't tax a corporation anyway.  They just pass the tax on to their consumer in the price of the product.

>INFRASTRUCTURE  A new branch of the government.  Government take over of our rail system eliminating cross country trucking.  Government take over of our power grid.  NO government funding to private enterprises.

I do find the wear and tear on highways, especially the "grooves" in asphalt highways from trucks frustrating and the cost of maintaining the highways for the trucks is very expensive.  Truckers think it's bad to subsidize the railroads but if the truckers had to build and maintain their own roads they would not be in business.  But I'm not sure I want to get the government involved in preventing and policing truckers to make sure they aren't going cross country.  You could subsidize the railroads enough to compensate.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #96 on: October 08, 2019, 01:10:37 pm »
Have you considered WHY younger people might be earning less?  let me give you an example:  My 19 year old granddaughter is living with us while she works and goes to school.  Our minimum wage was just jacked up and our state still holds to the Obama-care requirements for providing insurance.  The solution for her employer is that no one on the payroll other than the supers gets full time work.  It is cheaper to have multiple part time workers.  In her age range, very few people have skills that will earn more than minimum wage unless they have started in a trade.  Minimum wage workers are pretty easy to come by.


Quote
In a dream world if I could make the changes...
HEALTHCARE  Remove employee provided healthcare.  It gives an unfair advantage to larger companies.  It makes it much harder to start a business.  Remove the special benefits from all government employees.
EDUCATION  Equalize the standards across the nation for public schools.  If the well to do want something better they can send their kids to charter schools that have no government assistance of any kind.  I like the idea of community colleges.  Low cost funding should be provided on a 3 month basis for grades C and above.
MANUFACTURING/ TAXES  No tax on companies that produce goods with american workers.  A flat income tax rate.  No filing taxes.

INFRASTRUCTURE  A new branch of the government.  Government take over of our rail system eliminating cross country trucking.  Government take over of our power grid.  NO government funding to private enterprises.

I agree with you that employer-provided health care is one of the worst things ever demanded by employees.  We would have a far more efficient and cost-effective system if we had competition in healthcare insurance and if we had a cash-based system for most services.  Part of the problem is the state mandates on what insurance must cover.  Another part is that we can't shop for healthcare insurance in the same way we shop for auto insurance.

We have tried equalizing standards with No Child Left Behind.  It didn't work.  There are a number of reasons it didn't work.  A better way to make education more effective is to allow the tax dollars to go with the child.  In that way, the family can pick the best education system for their child.  Teachers' unions hate this idea.  Public schools hate this idea.  It would cause competition and they would have to actually teach kids in order to keep kids.

I agree that we should have a flat tax that is paid by every person that has a source of income.  Welfare, etc. should be taxed at the same % as everything else.  If you are paying taxes, you care where your money is spent.  If you are living on OPM, you don't. 

The last thing on earth we need is another government department of waste.  Amtrak is subsidized and it is horrible.  It is expensive, unreliable, and often unsafe. 
Freight rail often gets federal and state money for projects, and it certainly was helped in the distant past by favorable land grants, etc.  That said, the freight system is private and runs on profit, not government money.  It is efficient, safe, and for the most part, well run.  It has limitations.  Because of the size of this country, it is not possible for freight to be delivered by train all around the country.  Truckes are the only answer and can't be done away with.

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Government take over of our power grid.  NO government funding to private enterprises.

No on the first.  Yes on the second.

On the power grid, assuming you are talking about a federal government takeover, that's a big no.  It would not be more efficient, it would not control cost.  PUCs, states, and private companies are accountable to the people who use the service.  The feds are accountable to no one.  If my power goes out, my local company is out here to fix it quickly. 

Imagine trying to get service from a federally run power provider! Maybe you can give me an example of a federally run anything that responds quickly to the "customers" needs?

The one thing the feds could do is facilitate the upgrading of the grid.  This is a national security issue and within their wheelhouse.  Instead, they worry about roads and bridges, most of which should be taken care of by states. 



They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #97 on: October 09, 2019, 05:31:00 pm »
Minimum wage workers are pretty easy to come by.
Nothing could be further from the truth.  No child that has been spoon fed wants a minimum wage job, part time or full time.  No child cares about benefits.  They don't look ahead

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Another part is that we can't shop for healthcare insurance in the same way we shop for auto insurance.
In most states auto insurance is required.  In some areas competition is lost if you are forced to have it.
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We have tried equalizing standards with No Child Left Behind.
Well you are not listening.  I didn't say No child Left Behind.  That is not equalizing standards.

Welfare, etc. should be taxed at the same % as everything else.  Taxing Welfare is like taxing Social Security.  It results in money lost.  Just decrease the benefit and forget filing taxes.

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Amtrak is subsidized and it is horrible.  It is expensive, unreliable, and often unsafe. 
Again you are not listening.  No subsidies.
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Freight rail often gets federal and state money for projects, and it certainly was helped in the distant past by favorable land grants, etc.  That said, the freight system is private and runs on profit, not government money.  It is efficient, safe, and for the most part, well run.  It has limitations.  Because of the size of this country, it is not possible for freight to be delivered by train all around the country.  Truckes are the only answer and can't be done away with.
I didn't say do away with trucking it is needed for the short hall but definitely not needed for long halls.  Our rail system is the worst in the developed world.  Not efficient, not safe and not run well.  Benefits and way over paid work force make it a sin.

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Imagine trying to get service from a federally run power provider! Maybe you can give me an example of a federally run anything that responds quickly to the "customers" needs?
  FEMA, Federal Reserve, FBI,  CIA, CDC.  Who puts out your forest fires?  The biggest problem with any government provider is they can't fire their workers for non performance.  Mostly a union issue.

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The one thing the feds could do is facilitate the upgrading of the grid.  This is a national security issue and within their wheelhouse.  Instead, they worry about roads and bridges, most of which should be taken care of by states.
That is because of the trucks.  If we were dependent on rail instead of trucking it would be a different story.  The roads are not built for tourist although NY has used their roads as an advantage for tourism.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #98 on: October 09, 2019, 07:19:28 pm »
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Nothing could be further from the truth.  No child that has been spoon fed wants a minimum wage job, part time or full time.

In the low skill category, which should be the younger kids and those going to school, there are an abundant number of minimum wage workers.  One would hope that they don't want to stay in a minimum wage job.  Everyone has to start somewhere. 

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In most states auto insurance is required.  In some areas competition is lost if you are forced to have it.

But you have choices.  you can buy your insurance from any company anywhere.  Competition. 

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Well you are not listening.  I didn't say No child Left Behind.  That is not equalizing standards.

Welfare, etc. should be taxed at the same % as everything else.  Taxing Welfare is like taxing Social Security.  It results in money lost.  Just decrease the benefit and forget filing taxes.

NCLB was an attempt to equalize standards.  It failed for any number of reasons.  It really doesn't matter whether you mandate the material or the outcome. 

The reason for taxing welfare is not to generate revenue.  It is to make people care about where their money is going.  If you don't pay in, but you are given stuff, you don't really care as long as you get the stuff. 

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Again you are not listening.  No subsidies.

Not sure of your train point then.  companies are going to do what makes money.  They are not going to run lines that don't pay. 

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Our rail system is the worst in the developed world.  Not efficient, not safe and not run well.  Benefits and way over paid work force make it a sin.

I don't think this is true given the size of the country and the amount of good moved, but if it is, what is your solution?

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FEMA, Federal Reserve, FBI,  CIA, CDC.  Who puts out your forest fires?  The biggest problem with any government provider is they can't fire their workers for non performance.  Mostly a union issue.

Having worked with a number of those agencies, I think you and I have a different definition of efficient and responsive!

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That is because of the trucks.  If we were dependent on rail instead of trucking it would be a different story.  The roads are not built for tourist although NY has used their roads as an advantage for tourism.

No, it is because state governments have used the money they take in for roads, usually a gas tax, for everything but roads.  The worst roads around here never see a big truck.  Drive the roads of CA, and they are horrible and not because of trucks. 
Once states like CA and mine stopped doing dedicated taxes the revenue pot became a slush fund for everyone to stick in a hand.  CA used to have some of the best roads in the country, but the gas tax was dedicated to roads and could not be used for anything else. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline Acebird

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #99 on: October 10, 2019, 10:14:52 am »
In the low skill category, which should be the younger kids and those going to school, there are an abundant number of minimum wage workers.
Maybe my area is different than yours but minimum wage service jobs have help wanted signs up permanently.  Fast food industry they never go down.

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But you have choices.  you can buy your insurance from any company anywhere.
  Sometimes.  Insurance companies are regulated to protect the big guys.  Not all companies can provide insurance in all states.  Same with health care.

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The reason for taxing welfare is not to generate revenue.  It is to make people care about where their money is going.  If you don't pay in, but you are given stuff, you don't really care as long as you get the stuff. 
The only way they are going to care is if they have to pay it back.  And before you say they have no way to pay it back, they could be building rail roads.

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Not sure of your train point then.  companies are going to do what makes money.  They are not going to run lines that don't pay. 
That is why independent railroads will never work.  You end up with antiquated systems.  If you left it up to independent companies to build roads you would have dirt roads everywhere and no interstates.  And no trucking for that matter.  One of the things that made New York the empire state is the building of the canal system.  Barely anything is transported by canal anymore.  BECAUSE OF THE ROADS.  The country needs to take over not subsidize rail.  Pay the owners for the land and that is it.  Build high speed automated trains.  No people getting stoned coming to work and driving a train into another or flying off the track because they fell asleep.  No trains crashing into others because mistakes at track switching.
I agree with you about governments regulating monopolies.  It doesn't seem to work.  I think government would be better at owning monopolies.  But there can't be any unions.

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I don't think this is true given the size of the country and the amount of good moved, but if it is, what is your solution?
China is doing it and they are 10 times our size.  They also make most of the goods.

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No, it is because state governments have used the money they take in for roads, usually a gas tax, for everything but roads.

And NY has an independent through-way system where the tolls were suppose to cover maintenance.  Then a bridge fell down and killed a few people.  With a profit based company maintenance is the first to suffer.  You see this everywhere.  People die the company goes under and then a new company starts the process all over again.
Nothing degrades any faster then when private enterprise is involved in a monopoly.  Everything is short term decisions.  The only curb to the degradation is very heavy regulation which is costly and breads corruption.
Brian Cardinal
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