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Author Topic: Has Trump gone to far?  (Read 3804 times)

Offline kathyp

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #180 on: November 17, 2019, 11:03:58 am »
Quote
Gitmo is only there because you wish to keep prisoners incarcerated without trial, something you would be unable to do on US soil! (Dallas?) As a base it is irrelevant after all it is only 90miles from the US, it's probably out of sight out of mind somewhere to do the dirty work. Then straight to the basement to "old smokey" as is KathyPs preference . Something out of Goebbels playbook

Some of them will not be tried.  They are held as enemy combatants and they can be held without trial for as long as we feel we need to hold them.  We have released many of them to countries that promised to supervise their behavior and guess where they ended up again? 

They do not qualify for Geneva Conventions protections, so the worst of the worst stay on a nice island with plenty of good food and recreation.

Goebbels and Co. engaged in genocide.  Surely you do not equate executing terrorists with genocide?
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #181 on: November 17, 2019, 02:05:11 pm »
Cider,
So you are saying it is really just a penal colony just like the UK had all over the world. 😀
Jim Altmiller
I think I would prefer to call it a POW camp with an interrogation facility attached. Most civilized countries release their POWs once they leave the conflict country, or do you intend never to leave Syria/Iraq? a la Cuba?.....isn't the base on a lease? that can be revoked? :grin:

PS I'm not sure but I think we only really had one penal colony, Australia. :cheesy:

PPS We used to specialize in concentration camps! as in the Boar War. That was before we grew up. Not in 2019 :cheesy:
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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #182 on: November 17, 2019, 02:55:58 pm »
Quote
Gitmo is only there because you wish to keep prisoners incarcerated without trial, something you would be unable to do on US soil! (Dallas?) As a base it is irrelevant after all it is only 90miles from the US, it's probably out of sight out of mind somewhere to do the dirty work. Then straight to the basement to "old smokey" as is KathyPs preference . Something out of Goebbels playbook

Some of them will not be tried.  They are held as enemy combatants and they can be held without trial for as long as we feel we need to hold them.  We have released many of them to countries that promised to supervise their behavior and guess where they ended up again? 

They do not qualify for Geneva Conventions protections, so the worst of the worst stay on a nice island with plenty of good food and recreation.

Goebbels and Co. engaged in genocide.  Surely you do not equate executing terrorists with genocide?
How many have you executed ???

PS:
The Yearly cost to U.S. taxpayers of a prisoner in a maximum-security federal prison: Approximately $78,000.
The yearly cost to hold each detainee at Guantnamo: More than $10 million.
The Annual cost to operate Guantnamo: Approximately $445 million.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 03:33:20 pm by cidersabuzzin »
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Offline iddee

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #183 on: November 17, 2019, 05:21:42 pm »
According to my math, cider, you are saying there are only about 44 detainees in gitmo. I would think you could find a better topic to fuss about than 44 terrorists being held until they are no longer considered a danger.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #184 on: November 17, 2019, 06:09:12 pm »
According to my math, cider, you are saying there are only about 44 detainees in gitmo. I would think you could find a better topic to fuss about than 44 terrorists being held until they are no longer considered a danger.

iddee, As usual, you miss the point entirely. It is not the numbers you and kathy ramble on about your constitution but are quite happy to lock up people without trial for what seems the rest of their natural lives,(unless they suddenly die) just because they're foreigners....that is the point! You can't have it both ways: rolleyes:
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

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Offline iddee

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #185 on: November 17, 2019, 06:48:17 pm »
NOT for the rest of their lives. Only until they are no longer a danger. If they will always be a danger, then maybe their lives need to be ended. That decision would need to be per individual, but POWs are held until the war is over. I'm sure we will empty Gitmo as soon as Jihad has come to an end.
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Offline kathyp

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #186 on: November 17, 2019, 07:30:32 pm »
Quote
think I would prefer to call it a POW camp with an interrogation facility attached. Most civilized countries release their POWs once they leave the conflict country, or do you intend never to leave Syria/Iraq? a la Cuba?.....isn't the base on a lease? that can be revoked? :grin:

PS I'm not sure but I think we only really had one penal colony, Australia. :cheesy:

PPS We used to specialize in concentration camps! as in the Boar War. That was before we grew up. Not in 2019

As you say, we have not left the conflict countries.  There is a difference in law between a POW and a terrorist.  Terrorists are not covered by Geneva Conventions protections.  In fact, there is a description of legal combatants and terrorists are excluded. 

Quote
How many have you executed ???

PS:
The Yearly cost to U.S. taxpayers of a prisoner in a maximum-security federal prison: Approximately $78,000.
The yearly cost to hold each detainee at Guantnamo: More than $10 million.
The Annual cost to operate Guantnamo: Approximately $445 million.

Unfortunately, we have not executed any.  I do not know where your cost estimates come from but it is undoubtedly a high cost.  Perhaps not has high has returning them to the battlefield to kill your soldiers and ours, or our civilians. 
It most certainly could be made cheaper and should be as should the cost of keeping all prisoners.  Sherrif Joe had it right on that part.

Quote
It is not the numbers you and kathy ramble on about your constitution but are quite happy to lock up people without trial for what seems the rest of their natural lives,

Why on earth would we want to extend to the people who wish to wipe us out, the protections of our constitution?  I'm sorry.  The whole "we are better than that" argument does not wash with me.  Locke them up.  Kill them.  I don't care.  Just keep them where they can do no more harm and my preference on the battlefield is that the war is fought so that this question does not need to be asked about a new batch.


 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #187 on: November 17, 2019, 09:28:20 pm »
So when in WW11 you're captured airborne we executed out of hand on the battlefield you have no problem with that? Keep digging kathy keep digging. The whole point of my part in this thread is you cannot express a holier than thou attitude and expect people to believe you.

PS I would have preferred these people to have been eliminated on the battlefield, but once captured they should be treated the same as you would expect yours to be! If not you reduce yourself to their level. For all I know you could be, judging by some of your comments, maybe thats just a hangover from your past military history. Unfortunate. :rolleyes:
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Offline iddee

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #188 on: November 17, 2019, 09:37:18 pm »
No, cider, we do not look at a well trained soldier that is fighting for his country the same as we look at an animal setting off suicide bombs in crowded civilian buses and shopping centers. If you consider them equals, I will lose a lot of the respect I have had for you thus far.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #189 on: November 17, 2019, 10:04:54 pm »
No, cider, we do not look at a well trained soldier that is fighting for his country the same as we look at an animal setting off suicide bombs in crowded civilian buses and shopping centers. If you consider them equals, I will lose a lot of the respect I have had for you thus far.

If that is the case why did your country support and finance IRA terrorists who were "civilian dressed animals setting off bombs in crowded civilian buses and shopping centers" whilst murdering army soldiers. Even on Remembrance Day. The lowest of the low.But your people were sending money so they could buy arms and explosives. You would give pot and black a good name!
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #190 on: November 18, 2019, 12:40:20 am »
No, cider, we do not look at a well trained soldier that is fighting for his country the same as we look at an animal setting off suicide bombs in crowded civilian buses and shopping centers. If you consider them equals, I will lose a lot of the respect I have had for you thus far.

If that is the case why did your country support and finance IRA terrorists who were "civilian dressed animals setting off bombs in crowded civilian buses and shopping centers" whilst murdering army soldiers. Even on Remembrance Day. The lowest of the low.But your people were sending money so they could buy arms and explosives. You would give pot and black a good name!

Cider this is disturbing. I sure hope that information is not accurate. Do you have an available body of facts  showing this is true and accurate? Do you have evidence? If so it may be once again the stupidly of  your friends on the left...  Just recently for example, Fast and Furious.~ Benghazi just for two examples. With all the trouble that you have experienced there in your homeland, and our roots of England. How and why do you speak up continually for these leftist leaning folks?   Isn?t it time to consider the right?

Offline iddee

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #191 on: November 18, 2019, 04:07:07 am »
What he said, ider. Let'ssee some details. I have my doubts about the republicans doing hat. Now, the dems. may well have, like giving Iran billions to use against us.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #192 on: November 18, 2019, 04:54:32 am »
What he said, ider. Let'ssee some details. I have my doubts about the republicans doing hat. Now, the dems. may well have, like giving Iran billions to use against us.

Have a look at Noraid, funny that after 9/11 funding of Noraid suddenly dried up. People suddenly woke up to who they had been funding.

"Others would point to the fact that an attack by the dissident 'Real IRA' in Omagh in 1998 claimed the lives of 29 civilians, while hundreds of people were killed and thousands maimed in IRA bombings and shootings in more than thirty years of violence"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1563119.stm
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS

Offline iddee

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #193 on: November 18, 2019, 06:15:27 am »
Show me where I'm wrong. Following your links, I found civilian support for the IRA by Irish immigrants and descendants in America. I didn't see where the American government gave arms to them.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #194 on: November 18, 2019, 08:04:10 am »
Show me where I'm wrong. Following your links, I found civilian support for the IRA by Irish immigrants and descendants in America. I didn't see where the American government gave arms to them.

Never said the Government gave them cash! :rolleyes: just deluded civilians. :angry:
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #195 on: November 18, 2019, 08:32:45 am »
>So when in WW11 you're captured airborne we executed out of hand on the battlefield you have no problem with that

It's insanity to compare treatment of POWs to treatment of Terrorists.  There is all the difference in the world between a POW and a terrorist.  On the other hand, I don't think torture is that useful for getting the truth, nor do I think people should be held indefinitely without being charged with a crime.  I think they should be charged and tried.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #196 on: November 18, 2019, 08:43:03 am »
So now you condemn people who leave their home country and come to the US, then send money back to assist their home folk?

Going a bit far there, aren't you?
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #197 on: November 18, 2019, 09:27:40 am »
So now you condemn people who leave their home country and come to the US, then send money back to assist their home folk?

Going a bit far there, aren't you?

Cider, let me add, in 1998 Bill Clinton the DEMOCRAT was President.  The Left. Your heros were in charge.  :shocked:
Again, maybe it?s time to consider the thinking of the right?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 09:53:52 am by Ben Framed »

Offline kathyp

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #198 on: November 18, 2019, 11:56:52 am »
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but once captured they should be treated the same as you would expect yours to be!

They are treated far better than ours.  If you want the videos I can find them for you.  Heads chopped off, burned alive, raped (men and women), etc.  So no, I have no sympathy for Gitmo prisoners who are well fed, have exercise fields, prayer rugs, washbasins, and spiritual leaders, and would go back to chop off heads in a second if released.  It's not like they are going home to the family and farm.  We know this because we know what the ones already released have done.

Again, there is a law that covers this.  Do you need a link to the Geneva Conventions?

Quote
just deluded civilians.

Deluded civilians do all kinds of things.  They supported communism, Hitler, the IRA, the VC, and any number of bad things and actors.  What  is your point?  You have people in your country who do the same. 
They are so divorced from their own interests that even when their own security and that of their children is finally compromised, they do not seek to avert the danger themselves but cross their arms and wait for the nation as a whole to come to their aid. Yet as utterly as they sacrifice their own free will, they are no fonder of obedience than anyone else. They submit, it is true, to the whims of a clerk, but no sooner is force removed than they are glad to defy the law as a defeated enemy. Thus one finds them ever wavering between servitude and license.
Alexis de Tocqueville

Offline cidersabuzzin

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Re: Has Trump gone to far?
« Reply #199 on: November 18, 2019, 01:13:59 pm »
No, just come from reading sections of Geneva Conventions.
Why do you not put them on trial?
What are you afraid of?
Must be something, if your willing to spend  $450m per annum to keep 40 people detained.
I have nothing against executing them if found guilty. You could use your favorite "old smokey"

Or is it a way of justifying keeping the base open?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 01:36:13 pm by cidersabuzzin »
What's good for bees is usually good for mankind. Doesn't that mean sharing?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be, as long as you elect sane politicians who are not embarrassed about their hair" with apologies to SS