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Author Topic: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb  (Read 1209 times)

Offline Skeggley

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Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2019, 09:11:47 pm »
Sorry to bring the thread back on topic but I wonder if the synthetic comb will mitigate max moth issues.

Offline FloridaGardener

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Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2019, 12:26:44 am »
Sorry to bring the thread back on topic but I wonder if the synthetic comb will mitigate wax moth issues.
Thank you for that.  It could be handy to use a frame of this or two if ...
1) the beekeeper has only a few hives, and no comb in storage
2) the brood nest is getting backfilled with nectar
3) it's too cold to draw comb
4) there's shortage of waxworking bees, due to brood break cycle or supercedure
5) there's a need to boost a small hive before queen lays winter bees
Naturally, each of these scenarios comes with its own set of complexities, causes, and potential solutions including doing nothing.

If this product truly is as "food grade" as permacomb, perhaps it's a useful tool.  Yes, it costs money.  So does a $40 Freeman trap or a $5 coffee.  If my bees make more honey [worth, say $40] for an $8 boost in comb, because there was more brood nest to increase population, it could be worth it.

The Betterbee folks were very helpful. In sum, they said:

  • The synthetic wax consists of  Hydrocarbons, as does beeswax.  Molecular structure of hydrocarbons is diverse, depending on the number of carbon and hydrogen, and their connections. Paraffin is one of many hydrocarbons. All paraffins are hydrocarbons, but not all hydrocarbons are paraffin. Betterbee states this is a product without the specific molecular arrangement of paraffin, but in the same chemical family.

    The synthetic wax also contains:
         Mono / di / tri (fatty acid)esters, but different in quantities from beeswax.
               These are a major component of real beeswax.
         Hydroxy mono and polyesters: beeswax and synthetic contain them in about the same amount.
         Free fatty acids & alcohols: beeswax contains these in varying amounts.
               The synthetic wax has these elements too.  It does not contain soy.
Just to keep perspective,
https://jameskennedymonash.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/table-of-esters-and-their-smells-v2.pdf
Esters in beeswax smell amazing, we know it. 

Synthetic comb has hydrocarbons. Hydrocarbons in are a primary element of fossil fuels. Yet, all organic life contains chemicals, including organic fruit [see pic].  Personally, I pay more for organic fruit and veg.  And beeswax is made of chemicals.  That's the conundrum.  Hence the original question.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 12:46:52 am by FloridaGardener »

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2019, 12:55:19 am »
'I pay more for organic fruit and veg that hasn't been dipped in wax.'' 
''The SYNTHETIC wax consists of  Hydrocarbons, as does beeswax.  Molecular structure of hydrocarbons is diverse, depending on the number of carbon and hydrogen, and their connections. Paraffin is one of many hydrocarbons. All paraffins are hydrocarbons, but not all hydrocarbons are paraffin. Betterbee states this is a product without the specific molecular arrangement of paraffin, but in the same chemical family.''

Food for thought
What does the FDA say about this product?
Will honey from this synthetic wax stand firm in the claim of being organic?
What will the city folks at the farmers market think when they find they are being fed honey made with synthetic wax?
Why do folks go to the farmers market in the first place to purchase their fruit, vegetables, honey and other farm raised products, instead of going to the supermarket?
Do we really think that it is a good idea to go down this trail?
Is synthetic honey coming down the pike sometime soon?

Thesaurus
adjective
synthetic leather: artificial, fake, imitation, faux, mock, simulated, ersatz, substitute; pseudo, so-called; man-made, manufactured, fabricated; informal phony, pretend. ANTONYMS natural.

Since you asked, not for me. No hard feelings.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 01:22:38 am by Ben Framed »

Offline FloridaGardener

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Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic comb
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2019, 12:30:56 pm »
To answer your questions Philip,
1. Bettercomb is being sold as non extractable, which for most persons means brood comb, not cut comb honey.
 
2. Most people who buy honey [even in a farmer's market] don't know "natural" and/or "treatment free" beekeeping can include plastic permacomb, polystyrene hives, and feeding gmo beet sugar.

3. Other chemicals are already in use and considered routine, both synthetic and organic. Apivar, Terramycin, Fumagillin, etc. There may be wax foundation with chemical reside; or treated-wood hive stands; or plywood covers containing adhesives; or fishing line (fluorocarbon); or painted hive exteriors where bees washboard and wear away the paint. Each beekeeper makes decisions on use of such.

4. Synthetic honey already exists: it's rice/beet/corn syrup fed to bees and extracted/sold as honey.

5. USA FDA isn't a neutral info source, nor is any agency/bureau whose opining members are lobbied.  If the evaluative science were out there, it would take years to gather data, and be internationally published. 

And this is an international forum, right?

That's why I'm asking for expert opinions in this product.  Not to begin an argument on semantics. The thin-sliced opinion of someone with 10,000+ hours of experience in bees has some evaluative weight on my decision whether to use a beekeeping product in the category of all the other products in #3 above.

And ...there's still a good question out there whether wax moths might turn up their fuzzy noses at a slightly different type of comb.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2019, 01:28:51 pm »
1. Bettercomb is being sold as non extractable, which for most persons means brood comb, not cut comb honey.

Yes fully understood. But you know as well as I, it will only be a matter of time before this will be melted down and incorporated into and mixed with (real) beeswax. Your question, Who WILL be the first to use this product.
 
2. Most people who buy honey [even in a farmer's market] don't know "natural" and/or "treatment free" beekeeping can include plastic permacomb, polystyrene hives, and feeding gmo beet sugar.

Many people have come to accept plastic as a basic containment, even in beekeeping, plastic bottles are sometimes used and sold in such. However,  I truly doubt,  health conscious consumers, who take the extra time and effort to go to a farmers market, fully expecting to purchase real unaltered, unadulterated honey, would be very happy knowing gmo sugar beet juice has been added.

3. Other chemicals are already in use and considered routine, both synthetic and organic. Apivar, Terramycin, Fumagillin, etc. There may be wax foundation with chemical reside; or treated-wood hive stands; or plywood covers containing adhesives; or fishing line (fluorocarbon); or painted hive exteriors where bees washboard and wear away the paint. Each beekeeper makes decisions on use of such.

You will not find in my wax,
Apivar, Terramycin, Fumagillin, etc.  But I did not know that honey can still be considered organic which uses the mentioned chemicals. If I were to choose To Use these chemicals, it?s good information to know that it can still be classified as organic if this is what you are telling me? If so,  Thanks for the information.

4. Synthetic honey already exists: it's rice/beet/corn syrup fed to bees and extracted/sold as honey.

I did not know this, I did know unfortunately, that some of the above is sometimes mixed with honey and labeled as honey. Which I contest. I certainly hope this is not practiced at our, your, local farmers market.  EVERYone that I know which buys honey from the farmers market, purchases it there in order to avoid this (synthetic version of ?watered down? Sugar syrup mixed or corn syrup mixed honey, this is the reason most purchase at the farmers market, as they trust the producer to be honest with them, selling (the real deal.)  Again, what will our health conscious city dwellers think of this imposter bees wax being used for honey or brood? Perhaps they will not care and accept it as you seem to suggest.

5. USA FDA isn't a neutral info source, nor is any agency/bureau whose opining members are lobbied.  If the evaluative science were out there, it would take years to gather data, and be internationally published. 

Yes I agree that it would and will take years to gather data to know if this will be safe. Just another reason to be cautious using any counterfeit bees wax. Has this research already been done?

And this is an international forum, right?

Correct

That's why I'm asking for expert opinions in this product.  Not to begin an argument on semantics. The thin-sliced opinion of someone with 10,000+ hours of experience in bees has some evaluative weight on my decision whether to use a beekeeping product in the category of all the other products in #3 above.

No argument here, You ask WHO WILL BE FIRST to use this. Not only I , but Jim and others also gave their opinion as to why they will not be first to use this, before I did. Difference is I added food for thought questions. My above questions are good honest questions, appropriate, and legitimate questions, weather asked by me ar someone else. Being this is an international forum, you not only asked this question to me, but the whole beekeeping world, ?Who Is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [paraffin] comb?.  I have more questions but I will restrain.

And ...there's still a good question out there whether wax moths might turn up their fuzzy noses at a slightly different type of comb

I don?t know about the wax moths but I have. Lol J/k 😁😁. Not saying I have a closed mind to this but there is not nearly enough information provided here to win my trust or spark my interest. I appreciate you posting this topic though as Otherwise I might have not heard of this new synthetic product anytime soon. Always good to learn of new products and wishing the originator the very best. Especially IF this truly is a good safe product?
Phillip
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 12:21:09 am by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2019, 02:50:23 am »
I moved this reply to a new thread. Look for
(Skewers for Support in Foundation-Less)
Thanks, Phillip
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 11:07:36 pm by Ben Framed »