Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb  (Read 1171 times)

Offline FloridaGardener

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 201
Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« on: July 03, 2019, 06:32:53 pm »
https://www.betterbee.com/foundation/bcombd10-bettercomb-drawn-comb.asp

I'm kind of interested.  Parrafin is a petroleum product, but, it's sprayed on most fruit & veg that isn't organic.  Betterbee claims it's food grade. 

My thinking is, perhaps 1-2 frames added per week would allow a colony to build up super quick because the queen has more room to lay - provided temp regulation doesn't take oodles of bees, and there are enough nurses to feed larvae. 

If it's used unwired, it's good for brood only, no extraction.  It could be handy for storing uncured nectar in a flow, too.

What do y'all think?

Offline Live Oak

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • Gender: Male
    • Tractor Farm and Family
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2019, 07:20:39 pm »
At $8.50 per frame, I think I'll pass.  I can see where these frames might serve a purpose to get a package up and going strong as soon as possible maybe.  Still, far too expensive in my opinion.

Offline The15thMember

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 580
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2019, 07:32:01 pm »
At $8.50 per frame, I think I'll pass.  I can see where these frames might serve a purpose to get a package up and going strong as soon as possible maybe.  Still, far too expensive in my opinion.
Agreed. I don?t use foundation, but I saw this product on their email this month and I thought, That is insanely expensive!  I?m glad I don?t use foundation. I know normal foundation is much cheaper, but still. . . .
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10741
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2019, 07:55:05 pm »
I don?t like the idea of putting petroleum products in my hives. On top of that way too expensive. They do not look like they would work in any of the frames that I use.
Na

Offline bobll

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 162
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2019, 10:06:37 pm »
Am I missing something? Isn't it better to just take a few empty, drawn frames in the spring, and put those in your NUC or swarm box? Wouldn't an empty brood frame be way better than this?

Offline Skeggley

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 101
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2019, 10:35:34 pm »
My first thought is the perils with cut comb sales using this product. Ergh.
Sure for brood frames it may be advantageous however when cycled out in a super there?s wax contamination with cappings......



Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2019, 06:20:49 am »
At $8.50 per frame, I think I'll pass.  I can see where these frames might serve a purpose to get a package up and going strong as soon as possible maybe.  Still, far too expensive in my opinion.
Agreed. I don?t use foundation, but I saw this product on their email this month and I thought, That is insanely expensive!  I?m glad I don?t use foundation. I know normal foundation is much cheaper, but still. . . .

I don?t like the idea of putting petroleum products in my hives. On top of that way too expensive.

I agree with all the above.
Phillip

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 17416
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2019, 09:14:01 am »
?BetterComb is produced from synthetic wax similar in chemical composition to beeswax. The wax is a mixture of ingredients synthesized from mineral and plant sources.?

That doesn?t sound like paraffin.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline bobll

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 162
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2019, 12:14:49 pm »
I am still confused guys. Why would anyone want to use this product unless they were a newbee, who is starting off from scratch without any drawn natural comb resources?

Offline Xerox

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 316
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2019, 01:01:51 pm »
I am still confused guys. Why would anyone want to use this product unless they were a newbee, who is starting off from scratch without any drawn natural comb resources?

I would just let the bees make their own comb. Let the bees be bees.

Offline The15thMember

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 580
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2019, 01:05:55 pm »
I am still confused guys. Why would anyone want to use this product unless they were a newbee, who is starting off from scratch without any drawn natural comb resources?
Bob, some people use foundation in their hives.  Foundation is basically a sheet made out of beeswax or plastic that is stamped with the cell pattern.  The bees then draw out the cells into the 3rd dimension.  I don't use foundation, just seemed like an unnecessary expense to me, so perhaps someone who uses it will chime in as to the benefits of using foundation and why some people like it.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline CoolBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 784
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2019, 01:06:56 pm »
I am still confused guys. Why would anyone want to use this product unless they were a newbee, who is starting off from scratch without any drawn natural comb resources?

Just a thought - Maybe commercial operations that want to increase honey production - building comb is said to use some nectar/honey that would otherwise go into storage .... (although this is believed, I've come across several writings that say this may not true - but it is still widely accepted).
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline bobll

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 162
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2019, 04:00:58 pm »
Thanks, 15thMember. I do understand the purpose of foundation, and certainly am not against it. I was just thinking that introducing food-grade/man made fully drawn comb to "allow a colony to build up super quick" was a lot more expensive and artificial, than just saving a few empty bee drawn frames from the previous year for that same purpose. Sort of like putting some empty fully drawn frames in a bait box so they can immediately start rearing. I anticipate having this resource this coming fall when I reduce the size of the hive for the first time. However, I might be missing the point of this thread. You all carry on...

Offline The15thMember

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 580
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2019, 07:14:35 pm »
Thanks, 15thMember. I do understand the purpose of foundation, and certainly am not against it. I was just thinking that introducing food-grade/man made fully drawn comb to "allow a colony to build up super quick" was a lot more expensive and artificial, than just saving a few empty bee drawn frames from the previous year for that same purpose. Sort of like putting some empty fully drawn frames in a bait box so they can immediately start rearing. I anticipate having this resource this coming fall when I reduce the size of the hive for the first time. However, I might be missing the point of this thread. You all carry on...
Oh, actually I apparently was the one not understanding, I thought this stuff was foundation, not drawn synthetic comb. You are right, it does seem pointless. Unless there?s a benefit to it over those fully drawn plastic frames (which I also am not sure why people use).
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2019, 07:16:33 pm »
I recently extracted a few frames of honey. This was my first spring that I had bees coming out of the winter as I only obtained my first hives last spring via cutouts. I have no extractor.  I was not planning on having any amount of honey to speak of this season. My goal was to split as many times as I can with the resources that I have available. However I did have a few frames of honey that was extra. .I viewed the post by one of the members here, where he crushed his comb. All of it.  This is something that I did not want to do. I checked out ways of extracting without an extractor and came up with a video which showed how to do this.  All of my combs are foundation less with fishing line for support. I was pleasantly surprised as using the method Which was suggested on the video. I did not lose a frame of drawn out foundation.  As per the video, I placed this back inside the beehive. Not only did they clean it up, but it looked excellent! And ready to go again!! Nothing wasted, including money for a cheap extractor. I would rather spend the money on one like Jim?s later when needed.

Oh yes, this was new, white comb to boot 🥾 !
Phillip

Offline bobll

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 162
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2019, 11:13:52 am »
Ben...
1. I would love to see that video, if you will post the earl.
2. I thought you were a LONG time beekeeper. You were a newbee last year?

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2019, 12:16:57 pm »
Ben...
1. I would love to see that video, if you will post the earl.
2. I thought you were a LONG time beekeeper. You were a newbee last year?

 No, I am new to beekeeping. Got my first hive last spring via cutout. And thanks mainly to JP and Schawee and their videos for that, along with a couple phone calls they were very helpful. And thanks  to many here which answered my hundreds of questions here. Also thanks to many many video makers from here and around the world for answering my questions for what I have learned and am learning.  I am reluctant to give a lot of advise here, being lack of experience. I only give advise when I am confident in same advise with my on experience.
  I am happy to share the video with you.  I offered to post the video in another post and topic if anyone was interested. So far you are the first one that has shown interest. I am ecstatic at the results from start to finish and so simple a child can do it. Advantages and I have seen no dis-advantage. I (especially) was pleased to save my beautiful drawn out foundation!!  I think I deleted the video after I offered  to post here before. No interest was shown. I will find it for you and send it today. Wishing you the best,
Phillip
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 04:05:17 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2019, 03:37:51 pm »
Bob This video is by Don Kuchenmeister. He has been into bees his whole life. A very nice guy from Ohio transplanted to Georgia. As busy as he is he has always been kind enough to take time to answer any question that I might have had for him. I was a little concerned as my frames are not laid with bought wire  foundation. This method worked beautifully for me with my foundation-less frames. The bees has brilliantly incorporated the fishing line in their drawn wax foundation.  I do wonder if this will work as well with no support at all. The foundation was so tough sounding as I scraped the capping and honey off, that I tend to believe that it will work just as well without fishing line or wire as long as the comb is attached on all four sides. I wish the same good results for you! Let me add, I placed the frames back in the supers and was AMAZED at the results the bees accomplished in cleaning up and shaping these foundations back in order, pronto!

 

Offline bobll

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 162
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2019, 07:04:52 pm »
Phillip. I actually have watched this video before, and several like it. They are a practical encyclopidia of information, that earlier generations never had. HOWEVER, I wrote this off because I could not see how the scraping method worked with foundationless. Sure, I could easily scrape down to the surface of a plastic foundation frame, but how do you keep from going too deep into a foundationless frame, crossing through the middle of the comb into the opposite side? It seems I would accidentally scoop a hole all the way through. Is the layer of wax at the back of each cell thicker than the drawn out sides, and acting as a dividing wall between the two faces?

Offline CoolBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 784
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2019, 07:57:08 pm »
Good video Phillip. Thanks for sharing.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2019, 09:24:30 pm »
Phillip. I actually have watched this video before, and several like it. They are a practical encyclopidia of information, that earlier generations never had. HOWEVER, I wrote this off because I could not see how the scraping method worked with foundationless. Sure, I could easily scrape down to the surface of a plastic foundation frame, but how do you keep from going too deep into a foundationless frame, crossing through the middle of the comb into the opposite side? It seems I would accidentally scoop a hole all the way through. Is the layer of wax at the back of each cell thicker than the drawn out sides, and acting as a dividing wall between the two faces?

I fully understand you questioning this method and so did I.  Irregardless I tried it anyway. And as you stated I was worried about gouging a hole through my foundation therefore I went gently and easily at first and was amazingly shocked at how strong the drawn foundation seem to be. After my first frame I became more aggressive and did not lose one Piece of my foundation less wax. But as I have stated before, my foundation less  is reinforced with 15 pound eagle claw fishing line. Placed in the X pattern. This wax was freshly drawn this season, filled and capped with white wax. And as I also stated,  I do not know how this will work without any reinforcement, but I tend to believe if your foundation less is attached on all four sides you should not have a problem. I have yet to download Resize It perhaps now would be a good time. That way I can send pictures of this. 

Good video Phillip. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks Alan.

Offline paus

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 473
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2019, 11:25:06 pm »
Is anyone besides me and a friend using skewers in the frames to strengthening foundationless  comb for extractor use. when building frames it seems faster than mono and they build comb  from the skewers

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2019, 12:23:22 am »
This is my second attempt to post pictures. If this works you should be able to see two pictures of one of the frames after extraction and after being placed back in the box for cleaning. One picture of each side. If you zoom in and look closely, you should be able to faintly see the fishing line through the almost clear white wax. [attachment=0]

Offline incognito

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 232
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2019, 12:27:36 am »
I wrote this off because I could not see how the scraping method worked with foundationless. Sure, I could easily scrape down to the surface of a plastic foundation frame, but how do you keep from going too deep into a foundationless frame, crossing through the middle of the comb into the opposite side?
Why scoop?
Disclaimer - I have no experience with the following. I am new to this also but this is my plan but my bee club has an extractor that is loaned out. I have no intention of trashing comb the bees spent time and energy building.
see below from an old post:
The nine frame boxes or one frame short, you are speaking of, usually is in reference to a honey super. Even with honey supers you start with a full box of foundation 10 in a 10 frame box etc so they will draw it out evenly. Later after it is drawn comb you cut back one frame (in honey supers), 9 frames in a 10 frame box etc. This usually gives the bees incentive to drawn the frame out deeper and leaves extra comb extended outside the frame to make it easier to cut the honey comb with an uncapping knife.
Tom

Offline CoolBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 784
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2019, 12:57:35 am »
I don't think the picture came thru Phillip.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2019, 01:29:23 am »
Thanks Alan, I have been trying for a long time via Jim?s instructions, something I am doing wrong. I started out with the suggested resize it 600 . That didnt work. I got the response (Your file is too large. The maximum attachment size allowed is 800 KB) I have worked my down to 133X100 with the same results every time . I have checked and double checked the instructions. Undoubtedly something I am doing wrong .

@ Paus
No doubt the skewers will be stronger than the fishing line. Fishing line was suggested to me by three breeders from the start and that is what I have stuck with. There reasoning is super-ceding cells can be easily cut out, even through fishing line and placed into a mating nuc.  I will try your method in the future for the experience. I thank you for the suggestion.  I would have liked to posted the pictures for you all of what we was taking about here.  Really nice , neat, and clean foundation with what I described  in the above post.
Phillip

Offline CoolBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 784
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2019, 01:35:38 am »
Phillip - posting pics is a "pain-..." here. With that [half] said - I just repeatedly downsize until it accepts them ... usually 3 to 5 attempts for me.

Heck - nothing is perfect in this world - a little patience goes a long ways - imho. Fwiw.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2019, 01:46:58 am »
Phillip - posting pics is a "pain-..." here. With that [half] said - I just repeatedly downsize until it accepts them ... usually 3 to 5 attempts for me.

Heck - nothing is perfect in this world - a little patience goes a long ways - imho. Fwiw.

Haa Haa thanks Alan, I need a lot of patience this time.. I will try again.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 02:57:07 am by Ben Framed »

Offline CoolBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 784
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2019, 01:59:43 am »
Phillip - posting pics is a "pain-..." here. With that [half] said - I just repeatedly downsize until it accepts them ... usually 3 to 5 attempts for me.

Heck - nothing is perfect in this world - a little patience goes a long ways - imho. Fwiw.

Hee Hee thanks Alan, I need a lot of patience this time.. I will try again.

 :cool: you'll get it Phillip.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline CoolBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 784
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2019, 02:04:32 am »
Phillip - posting pics is a "pain-..." here. With that [half] said - I just repeatedly downsize until it accepts them ... usually 3 to 5 attempts for me.

Heck - nothing is perfect in this world - a little patience goes a long ways - imho. Fwiw.

Hee Hee thanks Alan, I need a lot of patience this time.. I will try again.

Phillip - I should say - stubbornness probably carried me the last 1/2 mile - after patience gave up -  :grin:
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2019, 02:19:23 am »
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

You are again right Alan stubbornness did it!!  :grin:

No plastic here. This was after the frames had been placed back in the box for cleaning by the bees, Nice in my opinion.

The problem with posting was resize it app.. I switched to another app. Got it first time! . I will post more soon.
Phillip
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 03:14:08 am by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2019, 02:42:49 am »
 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

That is how they look after a night of draining right after the scraping extraction method. No rips or  tears. Also almost all honey is retrieved, leaving very little for the bees to scrap up.

😊😁Now Bob, I went through a lot of trouble for you, to post this for you. ''Chuckles'' 😁 Seeing should be believing.. 😊😁.  Hopefully next year I will have enough hives going into spring that I will need an extractor. I am thinking paus is right,  skewers would be better for that.
Phillip

Alan thanks for coaching me through this process with your support. 😊😁
Phillip
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 01:08:59 pm by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2019, 02:49:39 am »
This is how they look after a day back in the box. Front and back. Notice how nicely the bees incorporated the fishing line with their wax.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ][ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

I apologize for the doubled up picture , hopefully my next time doing this will be much smoother  Below you will see the opposite side of the frame. I have heard of others bashing the fishing line method, I for one, like it. Yes, it does take a few seconds to install the fishing live but so does foundation? And if wire is embedded into wax foundation? These both take time also?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 01:37:20 am by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2019, 03:05:17 am »
One more thing, I would suggest anyone who would like to post pictures for the first time, scrap the idea of resize it and go with ReSIZER. This recommendation is coming from experience: THE HARD WAY  :wink:.

Phillip

Offline bobll

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 162
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2019, 10:28:59 am »
1. Picture resizing. I have a phone app called Lit Photo, but what I usually do is send the pic from my phone to my laptop, then resize it with microsoft Paint, which is a little Windows accessory program that comes free with Windows. I can get it right on the 200kb size limit.
2. I kept looking for your replies on this thread for several days, before I saw that it began a page two. Why does it seem some threads run long on one page, while others start a page 2, 3, etc?
3. Phillip, You have sold me on trying it. Thanks for the pics and the encouragement. I had resigned myself to use the crush and strain method, and probably still will on the badly wonky frames. But, I will definitely use this method...though I don't expect any honey this first year. I want to leave them sufficient stores to not have to feed them this fall/winter.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2019, 10:49:39 am »
Thanks Bob,

Quote
Phillip, You have sold me on trying it. Thanks for the pics and the encouragement. I had resigned myself to use the crush and strain method, and probably still will on the badly wonky frames. But, I will definitely use this method...though I don't expect any honey this first year. I want to leave them sufficient stores to not have to feed them this fall/winter

I was surprised at how much honey I retrieved from each frame. Since you were planning on crushing you have nothing to loose and foundation to gain. You might have said and I might have missed it, do you have any type support for your foundation-less? Let us know how this works out for you.
Phillip

Offline CoolBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 784
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2019, 01:09:32 pm »
Hey, hey, hey - you got it Phillip! I believed in you all the way  :cool:

Those are beautiful pictures! Thanks for sharing with the rest of us. I learned something new. Nicely done!
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline CoolBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 784
  • Gender: Male
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2019, 01:18:21 pm »
I should add - I harvested (via extractor) this year. Most of my frames were foundationless. As long as they were attached on all sides, I didn't have a problem extracting. ... but I do like your fishing line method Phillip. I'll have to try that.
You cannot permanently help men by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves - Abraham Lincoln

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2019, 01:19:40 pm »
Hey, hey, hey - you got it Phillip! I believed in you all the way  :cool:

Those are beautiful pictures! Thanks for sharing with the rest of us. I learned something new. Nicely done!

Thanks Alan, just passing along something useful as it was given to me. Happy to share.
Phillip

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2019, 12:13:57 am »
1. Picture resizing. I have a phone app called Lit Photo, but what I usually do is send the pic from my phone to my laptop, then resize it with microsoft Paint, which is a little Windows accessory program that comes free with Windows. I can get it right on the 200kb size limit.
2. I kept looking for your replies on this thread for several days, before I saw that it began a page two. Why does it seem some threads run long on one page, while others start a page 2, 3, etc?
3. Phillip, You have sold me on trying it. Thanks for the pics and the encouragement. I had resigned myself to use the crush and strain method, and probably still will on the badly wonky frames. But, I will definitely use this method...though I don't expect any honey this first year. I want to leave them sufficient stores to not have to feed them this fall/winter.

Thanks Bob, I was using my phone but I will use your method on the computer in the future.
Phillip

Offline Skeggley

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 101
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2019, 09:11:47 pm »
Sorry to bring the thread back on topic but I wonder if the synthetic comb will mitigate max moth issues.

Offline FloridaGardener

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 201
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2019, 12:26:44 am »
Sorry to bring the thread back on topic but I wonder if the synthetic comb will mitigate wax moth issues.
Thank you for that.  It could be handy to use a frame of this or two if ...
1) the beekeeper has only a few hives, and no comb in storage
2) the brood nest is getting backfilled with nectar
3) it's too cold to draw comb
4) there's shortage of waxworking bees, due to brood break cycle or supercedure
5) there's a need to boost a small hive before queen lays winter bees
Naturally, each of these scenarios comes with its own set of complexities, causes, and potential solutions including doing nothing.

If this product truly is as "food grade" as permacomb, perhaps it's a useful tool.  Yes, it costs money.  So does a $40 Freeman trap or a $5 coffee.  If my bees make more honey [worth, say $40] for an $8 boost in comb, because there was more brood nest to increase population, it could be worth it.

The Betterbee folks were very helpful. In sum, they said:

  • The synthetic wax consists of  Hydrocarbons, as does beeswax.  Molecular structure of hydrocarbons is diverse, depending on the number of carbon and hydrogen, and their connections. Paraffin is one of many hydrocarbons. All paraffins are hydrocarbons, but not all hydrocarbons are paraffin. Betterbee states this is a product without the specific molecular arrangement of paraffin, but in the same chemical family.

    The synthetic wax also contains:
         Mono / di / tri (fatty acid)esters, but different in quantities from beeswax.
               These are a major component of real beeswax.
         Hydroxy mono and polyesters: beeswax and synthetic contain them in about the same amount.
         Free fatty acids & alcohols: beeswax contains these in varying amounts.
               The synthetic wax has these elements too.  It does not contain soy.
Just to keep perspective,
https://jameskennedymonash.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/table-of-esters-and-their-smells-v2.pdf
Esters in beeswax smell amazing, we know it. 

Synthetic comb has hydrocarbons. Hydrocarbons in are a primary element of fossil fuels. Yet, all organic life contains chemicals, including organic fruit [see pic].  Personally, I pay more for organic fruit and veg.  And beeswax is made of chemicals.  That's the conundrum.  Hence the original question.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 12:46:52 am by FloridaGardener »

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2019, 12:55:19 am »
'I pay more for organic fruit and veg that hasn't been dipped in wax.'' 
''The SYNTHETIC wax consists of  Hydrocarbons, as does beeswax.  Molecular structure of hydrocarbons is diverse, depending on the number of carbon and hydrogen, and their connections. Paraffin is one of many hydrocarbons. All paraffins are hydrocarbons, but not all hydrocarbons are paraffin. Betterbee states this is a product without the specific molecular arrangement of paraffin, but in the same chemical family.''

Food for thought
What does the FDA say about this product?
Will honey from this synthetic wax stand firm in the claim of being organic?
What will the city folks at the farmers market think when they find they are being fed honey made with synthetic wax?
Why do folks go to the farmers market in the first place to purchase their fruit, vegetables, honey and other farm raised products, instead of going to the supermarket?
Do we really think that it is a good idea to go down this trail?
Is synthetic honey coming down the pike sometime soon?

Thesaurus
adjective
synthetic leather: artificial, fake, imitation, faux, mock, simulated, ersatz, substitute; pseudo, so-called; man-made, manufactured, fabricated; informal phony, pretend. ANTONYMS natural.

Since you asked, not for me. No hard feelings.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 01:22:38 am by Ben Framed »

Offline FloridaGardener

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 201
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic comb
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2019, 12:30:56 pm »
To answer your questions Philip,
1. Bettercomb is being sold as non extractable, which for most persons means brood comb, not cut comb honey.
 
2. Most people who buy honey [even in a farmer's market] don't know "natural" and/or "treatment free" beekeeping can include plastic permacomb, polystyrene hives, and feeding gmo beet sugar.

3. Other chemicals are already in use and considered routine, both synthetic and organic. Apivar, Terramycin, Fumagillin, etc. There may be wax foundation with chemical reside; or treated-wood hive stands; or plywood covers containing adhesives; or fishing line (fluorocarbon); or painted hive exteriors where bees washboard and wear away the paint. Each beekeeper makes decisions on use of such.

4. Synthetic honey already exists: it's rice/beet/corn syrup fed to bees and extracted/sold as honey.

5. USA FDA isn't a neutral info source, nor is any agency/bureau whose opining members are lobbied.  If the evaluative science were out there, it would take years to gather data, and be internationally published. 

And this is an international forum, right?

That's why I'm asking for expert opinions in this product.  Not to begin an argument on semantics. The thin-sliced opinion of someone with 10,000+ hours of experience in bees has some evaluative weight on my decision whether to use a beekeeping product in the category of all the other products in #3 above.

And ...there's still a good question out there whether wax moths might turn up their fuzzy noses at a slightly different type of comb.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2019, 01:28:51 pm »
1. Bettercomb is being sold as non extractable, which for most persons means brood comb, not cut comb honey.

Yes fully understood. But you know as well as I, it will only be a matter of time before this will be melted down and incorporated into and mixed with (real) beeswax. Your question, Who WILL be the first to use this product.
 
2. Most people who buy honey [even in a farmer's market] don't know "natural" and/or "treatment free" beekeeping can include plastic permacomb, polystyrene hives, and feeding gmo beet sugar.

Many people have come to accept plastic as a basic containment, even in beekeeping, plastic bottles are sometimes used and sold in such. However,  I truly doubt,  health conscious consumers, who take the extra time and effort to go to a farmers market, fully expecting to purchase real unaltered, unadulterated honey, would be very happy knowing gmo sugar beet juice has been added.

3. Other chemicals are already in use and considered routine, both synthetic and organic. Apivar, Terramycin, Fumagillin, etc. There may be wax foundation with chemical reside; or treated-wood hive stands; or plywood covers containing adhesives; or fishing line (fluorocarbon); or painted hive exteriors where bees washboard and wear away the paint. Each beekeeper makes decisions on use of such.

You will not find in my wax,
Apivar, Terramycin, Fumagillin, etc.  But I did not know that honey can still be considered organic which uses the mentioned chemicals. If I were to choose To Use these chemicals, it?s good information to know that it can still be classified as organic if this is what you are telling me? If so,  Thanks for the information.

4. Synthetic honey already exists: it's rice/beet/corn syrup fed to bees and extracted/sold as honey.

I did not know this, I did know unfortunately, that some of the above is sometimes mixed with honey and labeled as honey. Which I contest. I certainly hope this is not practiced at our, your, local farmers market.  EVERYone that I know which buys honey from the farmers market, purchases it there in order to avoid this (synthetic version of ?watered down? Sugar syrup mixed or corn syrup mixed honey, this is the reason most purchase at the farmers market, as they trust the producer to be honest with them, selling (the real deal.)  Again, what will our health conscious city dwellers think of this imposter bees wax being used for honey or brood? Perhaps they will not care and accept it as you seem to suggest.

5. USA FDA isn't a neutral info source, nor is any agency/bureau whose opining members are lobbied.  If the evaluative science were out there, it would take years to gather data, and be internationally published. 

Yes I agree that it would and will take years to gather data to know if this will be safe. Just another reason to be cautious using any counterfeit bees wax. Has this research already been done?

And this is an international forum, right?

Correct

That's why I'm asking for expert opinions in this product.  Not to begin an argument on semantics. The thin-sliced opinion of someone with 10,000+ hours of experience in bees has some evaluative weight on my decision whether to use a beekeeping product in the category of all the other products in #3 above.

No argument here, You ask WHO WILL BE FIRST to use this. Not only I , but Jim and others also gave their opinion as to why they will not be first to use this, before I did. Difference is I added food for thought questions. My above questions are good honest questions, appropriate, and legitimate questions, weather asked by me ar someone else. Being this is an international forum, you not only asked this question to me, but the whole beekeeping world, ?Who Is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [paraffin] comb?.  I have more questions but I will restrain.

And ...there's still a good question out there whether wax moths might turn up their fuzzy noses at a slightly different type of comb

I don?t know about the wax moths but I have. Lol J/k 😁😁. Not saying I have a closed mind to this but there is not nearly enough information provided here to win my trust or spark my interest. I appreciate you posting this topic though as Otherwise I might have not heard of this new synthetic product anytime soon. Always good to learn of new products and wishing the originator the very best. Especially IF this truly is a good safe product?
Phillip
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 12:21:09 am by Ben Framed »

Offline Ben Framed

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
  • North Mississippi
Re: Who is first to try? Fully drawn synthetic [parrafin] comb
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2019, 02:50:23 am »
I moved this reply to a new thread. Look for
(Skewers for Support in Foundation-Less)
Thanks, Phillip
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 11:07:36 pm by Ben Framed »